D&D 5E Favored Soul: Overpowered?

[Delandel]

Am I missing something here?


We're given the Favored Soul as one of two examples to modify and create new class archetypes in this Unearthed Arcana:
https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/modifying-classes


For sorcerer, the author states:

Like bards, sorcerers are have a limitation on the number of spells they can choose from, which is a major restriction on the class.

And again:

Any time we expand the known spells of the sorcerer, we run the risk of overshadowing the other sorcerous origins, since the limitation on the number of spells the sorcerer knows has a big impact on how the class plays.

Yet the very first thing the Favored Soul gets is this:

CHOSEN OF THE GODS
At 1st level, you choose one of the cleric class’s divine domains. You add that domain’s spells for 1st-level clerics to your known spells. These spells do not count against the number of spells you can know, and they are considered to be sorcerer spells for you. When you reach 3rd, 5th, 7th, and 9th levels in the sorcerer class, you likewise learn your domain’s spells that become available at those levels.

So at 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, and 9th levels, the Favored Soul knows TWICE as many spells than any other Sorcerer. At max level, he still has +66% more spells known.


Isn't this crazy overpowered? Did the author really mean "spells known," not "you can choose to learn spells of your chosen domain as if they were on the Sorcerer's list"? It's especially worrisome as an example of how we should be modifying classes.

 

[IgnatiusJ.Reilly]

Yes, I'd have to agree, not sure what they were thinking with that one. They get the AC boost and flight of the Dragon Sorcerer as well. New 'options' that become default are not really 'options' at all. Re-skinning the Favored Soul as a Sorcerous Origin was a cool idea though.

 

[Delandel]

I got Rodney to respond to this on Twitter:
https://twitter.com/wotc_rodney/with_replies

Yes. Here were my considerations (tweets to follow)

first, the new spells come from a limited and fixed grouping, meaning it's not as potent as wide open spell selection

Second, the FS's other class features don't provide much of a raw potency increase compared to other sorcerous origins

For example, extra attack is nice for certain archetypes, but not a universal boon for everything the sorcerer does.

Third, because domain spells are gradually layered in, I didn't feel like level-to-level they had as big an impact.

It takes 9 levels for all of the domain spells to be added, so calling it a 66% increase is only true for 11 levels.

I really appreciate him answering me, but I disagree with just about everything.

1) True, it's a fixed and limited grouping, but the spell lists are incredibly powerful and gives you access to spells that sorcerers don't usually get. For example, Light domain gets Bless and Cure Wounds at 1st level, then Less Restoration and Spiritual Weapon at 3rd. These spells are better at what they do than any Sorcerer equivalent. Even if you pick Light Domain, which has a decent amount of overlap with sorcerer spells (burning hands, scorching ray), you're still picking up things like Faerie Fire, Flaming Sphere, again better than any Sorc equivalent. And also if you wanted spells like Burning Hands or Scorching Ray anyway, it frees up a choice for you from the Sorc list to take something else.

2) The FS's abilities definitely match up to the raw potency of the other Origins and just as "narrow." Half Plate + Shield is 17 AC -- you have higher AC than a Dragon Sorcerer's even if both had max DEX (FS 19, Dragon 18). Wings vs. Wings. Extra Attack (essentially double damage for your melee) vs. +CHA on specific blasting spells (varaible % increase, very good though) vs. the underwhelming "Bend Luck."

3) He doesn't realize that +66% spells known increase is severely downplaying it (that's at max level). At levels 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, it's a +100% increase in spells known. That's insane.

We'll see if he responds or not.

 

[Larac]

I find they "make" few if any mistakes.
I also think he played a Bard.

 

[brehobit]

Yeah, but on the upside, the spell-less ranger was even more overpowered.

I do think he's right--playtesting is needed. But both look quite overpowered (the spell-less ranger compared to a battlemaster, the favored Soul compared to a sorcerer).

 

[brehobit]

I'd say for FS you'd want to restrict the spells the FS gets from the sorc. list. Not quite sure how. Maybe require them to take two spells from the domain in place of one standard slot? That might do it, but still darn powerful with the armor. I agree the double attack probably isn't that important for a full caster--mostly color I'd think.

Another interesting option would be to utterly remove cantrips from their spells known. Or at least any cantrip that does damage. They'd need to have some martial skill then...

 

[brehobit]

Ranger fixes:

• Poultices can only be used on a character once per short rest of the target (much like the healing feat). Must be applied by the ranger.
• Change die to d6. Start with 3 dice rather than 4. Die goes to d8 at level 9.
• Call natural allies is limited to once per long rest.

Still stepping on the battle master's toes a lot, but not horrible. Ranger still gets a lot of cool things...

 

[Celtavian]

Neither one looks very powerful. I'm still not enticed to play either a ranger or a sorcerer over another class. Not sure why anyone would see either as overpowered.

Come up with something that shows why they're overpowered compared to other classes. Show what extraordinary things they can do that make them overpowered.

 

[pukunui]

I would've preferred it if the favored soul simply substituted the cleric spell list for the sorcerer one. No extra spells known, and no fireballs or anything like that either. The 3e FS couldn't cast arcane spells, after all.

 

[Delandel]

Yeah, but on the upside, the spell-less ranger was even more overpowered.

I do think he's right--playtesting is needed. But both look quite overpowered (the spell-less ranger compared to a battlemaster, the favored Soul compared to a sorcerer).

Haven't looked at the spell-less variant. Even worse? Jeeze.

I'm glad that he's willing to listen and transparent in his thought process though. Even though I greatly disagree with his balance point, especially when it contradicts his own philosophy on balancing, I'm glad that he's taking the time to engage with us. He's also open to suggestions, doesn't seem stubborn about it. Makes me confident in the people designing our game.

I'd probably give the FS a scaling HP boost like the Dragon Sorcerer but better, +2 per level. As he pointed out, D6 HD on a supposed "melee-ish" class is loose, this boosts it to D10. Then I'd give them access, but not automatically know, spells known from their chosen domain. It's still incredibly powerful to take things like Bless and Spiritual Weapon, there's nothing a Sorcerer knows that is equivalent to these types of spells.

That sets them up to be a powerful gish. Full spellcasting, D10 HD, medium armor + shield, extra attack. Compare that to Valor Bard, you've got a tankier full spellcaster with a far more robust spell list, but you lack the Bard's powerful support abilities.