Did the nerds win?

[Ruin Explorer]

Peter Parker's bully was a jock; member of the football team, letterman sweater wearer, part of the "in crowd."

Yeah I'm aware, what I mean is, bullies haven't consistently been "jocks" or "the cool kids" for my entire lifetime, and I'm 46 (though in the UK as I note).

I was bullied for being different.

Sure, and that's my point. Bullying isn't something exclusive or even, in my experience, primarily done by sporty kids or cool kids, and people who are into nerdy stuff have not, in my lifetime, been even the primary, secondary, or really even tertiary targets for it. Poor kids have been the primary targets, consistently. Sick kids who weren't sympathetic (broken arm, really serious illness, etc. is sympathetic, mental health issues, stress, dietary issues tend to be less so). Smart kids in some environments. Rules followers in some environments. Rules breakers in other environments. But people who liked nerdy stuff? That was pretty far down the list in say, 1993, so this idea that this has newly changed seems wrong to me.

So were the non-nerds bullying the nerds? Certainly. But not because they were nerds, but merely because they existed. And yes, the nerds were also bullying each other (and sometimes because they were nerds, as in the wrong type or the same type and thus competition for rule of the roost, etc.), and moreso just due to proximity.

Well yeah and to be clear I've seen nerds particularly bully the less-nerdy people in the same hobbies/interest groups. And even bully sporty kids on occasion - it just takes the right environment - it's just more likely to be a bad idea because they're more likely to be able to punch you effectively!

I got incredibly lucky with late high school myself - I went to private school, and from 10-16 I was at a very prestige-focused boys school, which, honestly, I hated (and there was a lot of at least attempted bullying). In part because I had unidentified and untreated ADHD which was causing havoc (ironically this protected me from some bullying but that's a whole other story). But 16-18 I went to a school which was somehow de facto "laid-back kids who didn't fit in to other private schools", which honestly healed me a huge amount and meant I didn't have the really bad experiences some people seem to have in that age range.

 

[Umbran]

Sure, but when there are tens of millions to hundreds of millions of nerds, "many" will always work as an absolute term. I think that even back in the '90s it was maybe 15-25% of people who played RPGs, read comic books, and so on who thought that was "the actual point". Is that significant? Yes. But again I would assert "many" of those people, perhaps the majority...

Arguments among ourselves over the use of the word "many" are pretty good evidence that while we may be getting the media and merch we always wanted, we did not "win" in any greater sense than that.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Yeah I'm aware, what I mean is, bullies haven't consistently been "jocks" or "the cool kids" for my entire lifetime, and I'm 46 (though in the UK as I note)

I seem to recall bullying jocks for being dumb when I was at school.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Comics, roleplaying games, etc., are all openly discussed in my non-nerdy workplace, I see D&D-related t-shirts worn in the grocery store about once a month or so, both of my kids attend schools where the D&D clubs are enormous.

Are there still people who are anti-geek stuff? Sure.

Are there people who will be nervous about sharing their geeky stuff, especially if they lived through an era when there was a social cost for it? Sure.

But overall, yes, we have won.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

for many, the complexity wasn't just a barrier, but it was the actual point of whatever hobby.

I reject the notion that Fudge and FATE are somehow less nerdy or lesser rolepaying games because they're less complex.

All of comics aren't the weird Summers family tree and all of RPGs aren't Rolemaster.

On the other hand, Felicia Day says we won, so I guess we did.

Felicia Day's career is a testament to the mainstream success of nerd stuff.

 

[TiQuinn]

I don’t think you can put “who were the bullies” into a neat little box because there’s all kinds of different ways to bully someone.

But if the question is whether it was socially acceptable in my time to be really into games, or Star Trek, or superheroes, it was a means to bully. Another means of attack. You didn’t get teased for being super into sports. You didn’t get teased for being into cars, or whatever the coolest bands were at the time. For me, if you were a heavy kid who wasn’t athletic, and was into nerdy stuff, it was a pretty hard go.

Does that mean that there weren’t “nerds” who were bullies? Absolutely not. There are people who love to establish pecking orders, regardless of whatever circle they’re in.

 

[Ryujin]

Yeah I'm aware, what I mean is, bullies haven't consistently been "jocks" or "the cool kids" for my entire lifetime, and I'm 46 (though in the UK as I note).

Sure, and that's my point. Bullying isn't something exclusive or even, in my experience, primarily done by sporty kids or cool kids, and people who are into nerdy stuff have not, in my lifetime, been even the primary, secondary, or really even tertiary targets for it. Poor kids have been the primary targets, consistently. Sick kids who weren't sympathetic (broken arm, really serious illness, etc. is sympathetic, mental health issues, stress, dietary issues tend to be less so). Smart kids in some environments. Rules followers in some environments. Rules breakers in other environments. But people who liked nerdy stuff? That was pretty far down the list in say, 1993, so this idea that this has newly changed seems wrong to me.

Well yeah and to be clear I've seen nerds particularly bully the less-nerdy people in the same hobbies/interest groups. And even bully sporty kids on occasion - it just takes the right environment - it's just more likely to be a bad idea because they're more likely to be able to punch you effectively!

I got incredibly lucky with late high school myself - I went to private school, and from 10-16 I was at a very prestige-focused boys school, which, honestly, I hated (and there was a lot of at least attempted bullying). In part because I had unidentified and untreated ADHD which was causing havoc (ironically this protected me from some bullying but that's a whole other story). But 16-18 I went to a school which was somehow de facto "laid-back kids who didn't fit in to other private schools", which honestly healed me a huge amount and meant I didn't have the really bad experiences some people seem to have in that age range.

I will just say this: I'm 61 years old and we've seemingly lived very different lives.

 

[delericho]

I think the issue is that, if those mainstreamers like the things, they may, in fact, be nerds.

Perhaps. Right now, though, it mostly feels like being bullied out of our spaces by the very people who bullied us into them in the first place.

 

[Gnostic Goblin]

It seems to me the biggest challenges in any community are its points of polarity and diversity, because those are also points of conflict and creativity. They are a pressure-cooker where either one side dies and the other takes over, or there is fusion resulting in innovation. They are the wild heat as opposed the mundane and routine stability.

I remember when it was difficult to find any other nerds at all, to play D&D with. A couple of kids regularly united by game sessions. Occasionally some travel and connection with other kids from beyond the border of practicality, discussing the game and characters before seldom seeing them again.

Then, the internet. Then, the popularity of RPGs in general expanded to the point where two things happened.

Reinvention:

Suddenly it was cool to play it, but only to play it the new way. The old-schoolers were not often embraced as its pioneers and teachers so much as ignored. The next generation are not as entrenched in issues they prefer not to take on board.

Polarisation:

For the first time, there were so many people involved in the hobby, we no longer had a rare handful of nerds trying to find each other. Suddenly we had factions and division within an expanding community. Generational differences. Ethical differences. All of the differences are contained within the concept of 'us verses them'. There was a phase of 'inclusivity' being the virtue-signal of the day, except it didn't include most people.

The original generations who grew up on RPGs through the 70s 80s 90s had a unity, they did not care about political differences or socio-economic differences. They set all that aside and connected through the shared passion of the game, an unspoken understanding. Nobody charged money to DM. That was the culture, the tradition, as much as the rolling of dice or checking on tables, moving 28mm miniatures around a map drawn with a biro on maths paper.

So did the nerds win?

No. The original Nerds were bulk-dumped by the new kids who think the old boys racist because they are heterosexual males and kill imaginary green-skins. The rebranded products now published by an industry which cares more about profit and image than it does about the people who fund it. The OSR movement evolved as a response to that; ageing, independent role-players standing their ground that indie-rpg is the core of the hobby, not the sideline.

The new-wave of Nerds are hipster-gamers, "I want the D&D experience because it will make me cool" are happily being financially extorted by commercial DMs who first picked up a rulebook five minutes ago, with push-button solutions instead of imagination and any sense of authenticity.

In UK the Warhammer movement is huge amongst gamers. Unlike D&D communities, the Warhammer gamers still continue to set aside all differences to game together. That is something beautiful to be aware of. The online D&D people though, omg where to begin? There are fractures which are destroying the community and damaging the industry. As with all fractures it is because hate is bigger than forgiveness. That toxicity is putting people off becoming involved in gaming because non-D&D people who show any interest and do a little research are coming across hate mobs and being encouraged to choose a side before they have even experienced their first game session.

We are all doing this because we are dysfunctional as a collective.

 

[Bohandas]

Indeed. Big Bang Theory is a pure-outsider (i.e. non-nerd) appropriation of and manipulation of nerd/geek culture, and is extremely superficial in its understanding thereof, and relied on stereotypes that were aimed solidly at Gen X contempt for nerds. It's actually quite hostile to nerds and neurodiverse people. It's very different to shows which genuinely love this stuff like Community.

I agree, Big Bang Theory sucked