Converting Oriental Adventures creatures

[freyar]

Hmmmm, I guess Aid Another doesn't work so well for increasing DCs like that, does it? Well, tell you what, I'm not fond of the partial escape clause, since, really, if it's "entangle weapon," the weapon should be the last thing that comes free, not the first. But otherwise, I'll go for it. Shall we set the DCs? Make them all Dex based, perhaps? Or Cha-based, since Cha is like Con for undead?

 

[Cleon]

Hmmmm, I guess Aid Another doesn't work so well for increasing DCs like that, does it? Well, tell you what, I'm not fond of the partial escape clause, since, really, if it's "entangle weapon," the weapon should be the last thing that comes free, not the first. But otherwise, I'll go for it. Shall we set the DCs? Make them all Dex based, perhaps? Or Cha-based, since Cha is like Con for undead?

I'll be willing to cut the partial escape just so we can make some progress with this, but I'll reserve the right to use it for a Special Improved Cleon Special™ version.

Shall we set the DCs? Make them all Dex based, perhaps? Or Cha-based, since Cha is like Con for undead?

Dex-based was my preference too, despite the Concentration/Escape Artist/Break DCs of a net are all fixed values.

The stats currently in the Veiled Maidens Working Draft give it a Dex-based DC of 18, which I think is in the right rounders' pitch.

We could add a racial bonus to the Escape Artist and/or Strength DCs. How about +4 to the Break DC, like a Monstrous Spider's webs?

 

[freyar]

I think that's reasonable. The only change I would make is to say that the DC increases by +1 by each additional veil entangling them, which I think was intended.

Entangle Weapon (Ex): A Veiled Maidens can ensnare an enemy of up to Large size by succeeding at a melee touch attack with its veil. The enemy becomes entangled and can only move within the limits of the veil's W ft. reach. If the entangled creature attempts to cast a spell, they must succeed at a Concentration check or the spell fails (DC 18 for spells with a Somatic component).

Furthermore, if the enemy is carrying a weapon (or similar implement, like an instrument or wand) the veil binds the weapon and prevents the enemy from attacking with it or otherwise using the object. If the enemy wields multiple implements, the Maidens can only entangle one of them for each veil they hit with, and must choose what weapon they entangle when making the attack.

The entangled enemy can escape the Maidens' veil by making a DC 18 Escape Artist check (or DC 22 Strength check) as a full round action. If the Veiled Maidens is using multiple bodies to entangle an opponent with more than one veil, the enemy only needs to make a single Escape Artist or Strength check to escape, but the DC to escape is increased by the number of additional veils entangling them (e.g. +3 DC for being entangled in four veils). Save and check DCs are Dexterity-based.

The enemy, or an ally of theirs, can also cut the veil(s) (AC A, hardness B*, hp C) with a slashing weapon. This frees the entangled enemy from that veil, but the veil immediately reforms.

*This hardness is due to the Maidens' steel cloth ability.

 

[Cleon]

I think that's reasonable. The only change I would make is to say that the DC increases by +1 by each additional veil entangling them, which I think was intended.

I intended it to be +1 per veil (i.e. two Veiled Maidens' veils give +2) since (a) it's simpler maths and (b) an "Aid Another" normally gives a +2 bonus. When two Maidens' bodies grapple an opponent together we could think of it as one Aid Anothering' the other.

We still need an AC, hardness B and hp for the veil.

 

[freyar]

I intended it to be +1 per veil (i.e. two Veiled Maidens' veils give +2) since (a) it's simpler maths and (b) an "Aid Another" normally gives a +2 bonus. When two Maidens' bodies grapple an opponent together we could think of it as one Aid Anothering' the other.

The problem is doing it that way is that the Escape Artist (or Strength check) DC reads funny: is it DC 18 or DC 19 to escape a single veil? In post 1370, it seemed like the DC to escape one veil was supposed to be DC Y, but then the extra sentence made it DC Y+1. It's just a little harder to divine the intent of the rule.

Should we specify that veils are cut via a sunder attempt? That's somewhat standard in this type of situation. Then no AC is required. I'd go with 5 hp, damage taken by the Maiden, or else 10 hp, no damage taken by the Maiden (like a roper's strands). Hardness can be set when we do the Steel Cloth ability. What do you think?

 

[Cleon]

The problem is doing it that way is that the Escape Artist (or Strength check) DC reads funny: is it DC 18 or DC 19 to escape a single veil? In post 1370, it seemed like the DC to escape one veil was supposed to be DC Y, but then the extra sentence made it DC Y+1. It's just a little harder to divine the intent of the rule.

Should we specify that veils are cut via a sunder attempt? That's somewhat standard in this type of situation. Then no AC is required. I'd go with 5 hp, damage taken by the Maiden, or else 10 hp, no damage taken by the Maiden (like a roper's strands). Hardness can be set when we do the Steel Cloth ability. What do you think?

I'm not sure how you got confused when the description says the bonus applies if the Veiled Maidens "entangle an opponent with more than one veil". It's even in a separate paragraph!

As for the Sunder attempt, I guess it makes sense, although I'd still like to leave them an AC so they can get shot through using ranged attacks.

Regarding the HPs and Hardness, I was thinking 2 hp like a light blade or inch-thick rope. If they are fairly easy to cut once you get through the "steel cloth" hardness it'll make for a more dramatic "being entangled then cutting yourself free" encounter.

How's this revision...

Entangle Weapon (Ex): A Veiled Maidens can ensnare an enemy of up to Large size by succeeding at a melee touch attack with its veil. The enemy becomes entangled and can only move within the limits of the veil's W ft. reach. If the entangled creature attempts to cast a spell, they must succeed at a Concentration check or the spell fails (DC 15, or DC 20 for spells with a Somatic component).

Furthermore, if the enemy is carrying a weapon (or similar implement, like an instrument or wand) the veil binds the weapon and prevents the enemy from attacking with it or otherwise using the object. If the enemy wields multiple implements, the Maidens can only entangle one of them for each veil they hit with, and must choose what weapon they entangle when making the attack.

An entangled enemy can escape a single Veiled Maidens' veil by making a DC 18 Escape Artist check (or DC 22 Strength check) as a full round action.

If the opponent is entangled in more than one veil, the enemy only needs to make a single Escape Artist or Strength check to escape, but the DC to escape is increased by the number of veils entangling them (e.g. +3 DC for being entangled in three veils).

The enemy, or an ally of theirs, can also cut through a veil using a slashing or piercing weapon (AC 20, hardness 10* [?], hp 2). This frees the entangled enemy from that veil, but the veil immediately reforms.

*This hardness is due to the Maidens' steel cloth ability.

 

[freyar]

Hmmm. Can you shoot other kinds of weapons with arrows?

The confusion I have is that the way it is written (and in your revision) just makes your intent unclear. For example, what you have for the Escape Artist DC with 1, 2, ..., 7 veils is 18, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25. Why get +2 when you add the second veil but only +1 when you add the third? I much prefer DC of 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, which is +1 per additional veil. It's nice and linear.

 

[Cleon]

Hmmm. Can you shoot other kinds of weapons with arrows?

The confusion I have is that the way it is written (and in your revision) just makes your intent unclear. For example, what you have for the Escape Artist DC with 1, 2, ..., 7 veils is 18, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25. Why get +2 when you add the second veil but only +1 when you add the third? I much prefer DC of 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, which is +1 per additional veil. It's nice and linear.

It seems perfectly clear to me, and I've already indicated I prefer the +2 because that's the advantage Aid Another provides.

 

[freyar]

In that case, it should be +2 per additional veil, since each aiding character grants a +2 bonus.

 

[Cleon]

In that case, it should be +2 per additional veil, since each aiding character grants a +2 bonus.

Making it +2 per additional veil would have made it too difficult for a creature entangled by most of the bodies to escape, so I went for +1 per veil for an opponent entangled by multiple veils.

I didn't feel constrained by the Aid Another rules because it isn't a character aiding another, it's more a character aiding itself. Furthermore, Aid Another only aids attack rolls or AC, not entangling DCs or grapple checks.

Anyhow, getting back to the point, the current wording for the multiple veils still seems nice and clear to me.