Converting monsters from Dragon magazine

[Cleon]

I could go for a giant Vermin, which would make it Int -. Nessie should definitely get good Hide skills, too.

It'd certainly help distinguish it from the other Sea Serpents we're doing, which are likely to be all or mostly Animals.

So are we going for Vermin then?

I think I'd go Str -2, Dex +4, Int -, Cha -4 for the abilities.

The original monster has a 3-30 damage bite, which is about a sixth better than an AD&D Elasmosaurus's bite of 4-24. If we do reduce the Strength we'd better add a damage boost to the bite. Maybe a dice of acid for corrosive saliva and slime?

As for Dexterity, I'm not seeing anything to justify increasing it from the "as Elasmosaurus" of the original. The only description of movement we've got is on land, which isn't much help. It says they "flop about" and move like a "giant slug", but they are probably much more ungainly on land than in their natural watery habitat.

Charisma-wise, if we're giving them a "Loathly Appearance" ability then their Charisma shouldn't be that since the ability will presumably be based on that stat.

A -4 drop to Cha 5 would give it a DC 17 "Loathsomeness". Would that be enough for you?

You read my mind about the "Revolting Appearance" ability. We could model it on Frightful Presence but acting on the sickened/nauseated scale, rather than fear.

Haven't we already done an ability of this sort? It sounds very familiar.

 

[freyar]

Yes, let's go for Vermin.

You make good points about the ability scores. My initial thoughts were just gut feelings, as it were, without considering special abilities, etc. As for Str, I guess I'd be ok either with adding some acid damage or else bumping Str a bit (rather than reducing it). Dex can remain flat, though I just got a feeling it was pretty good at getting around in the water, thus dexterous. As for Cha, I suppose it depends on the likely CR. DC 17 would be ok for a CR 10-11 critter, I think, at least depending on which save we use. But perhaps we should only reduce Cha by -2 if we think the CR will be a little higher.

 

[Cleon]

Yes, let's go for Vermin.

Updating Great Orm Working Draft.

I added darkvision 60 ft., as its a standard Vermin ability.

You make good points about the ability scores. My initial thoughts were just gut feelings, as it were, without considering special abilities, etc. As for Str, I guess I'd be ok either with adding some acid damage or else bumping Str a bit (rather than reducing it). Dex can remain flat, though I just got a feeling it was pretty good at getting around in the water, thus dexterous. As for Cha, I suppose it depends on the likely CR. DC 17 would be ok for a CR 10-11 critter, I think, at least depending on which save we use. But perhaps we should only reduce Cha by -2 if we think the CR will be a little higher.

I'm fine with flat Dex and -2 Cha for Cha 7, which would gives its Loathsome Appearance a nice round DC of 18.

So what are we doing regarding the Strength boost and/or acid bite?

As I said earlier, an AD&D Elasmosaurus had a 4-24 bite (average 14 damage), and the Great Orm has 3-30 (average 16.5 damage).

Come to think of it, that's not that much of an increase - it's just under 18%. The SRD Elasmosaurus gets more of a damage boost just from a size increase - 2d8+12 to 3d8+18 is a 50% boost.

So maybe we should reduce the Strength or bite damage a bit? It depends on whether we're using the Huge Elasmosaurus of the Gargantuan one as the "base damage" to which we're adding the 18% boost too. If the former we want an average bite damage around 25 hit points (e.g. Str 32 and bite 2d8+16) or 37 points (e.g. Str 36 and bite 4d8+19).

Should we have its bite include exposure to its poisonous secretions? I'm thinking it wouldn't, since it's not listed as a SPECIAL ATTACK in the original stats, but is a SPECIAL DEFENSE that only affects attackers who "touch it with bare flesh".

 

[freyar]

Let's split the difference, Str 34 with a 3d8 base damage.

 

[Cleon]

Let's split the difference, Str 34 with a 3d8 base damage.

That's what we have in the current draft.

Still, it's OK by me so I'll proceed with not updating the Great Orm Working Draft.

Shall we do the Poison next?

 

[freyar]

Yes. I'd go with contact poison (maybe ingested too). It seems like it should be pretty potent. I'm not sure I want it to be automatic death on a failed save, but maybe lots of Con damage. Like 1d12/1d12 maybe. Or multiple d6s in initial and secondary damage. That should be enough to kill a lot of PCs.

Do we need to spell out exposure due to grappling, etc, or just leave to that to the GM, do you think? I guess most PCs are too small to grapple this thing anyway.

 

[Cleon]

Yes. I'd go with contact poison (maybe ingested too). It seems like it should be pretty potent. I'm not sure I want it to be automatic death on a failed save, but maybe lots of Con damage. Like 1d12/1d12 maybe. Or multiple d6s in initial and secondary damage. That should be enough to kill a lot of PCs.

I wouldn't want it to be autodeath.

Most poisons in AD&D were death on a failed save but became ability damage in 3E, so I'd do the same here.

The original was save at -1 or die, which is more potent than a "normal" deadly venomous creature like a giant spider.

1d12/1d12 is fine by me. I'd be willing to go up to 2d6 Con/2d6 Con like a 3E Wyvern, which is a pretty good ballpark for an "extremely venomous" animal. The 2E AD&D giant poisonous snake and phase spider both have save at -2 or die poisons, but they only do d6/d6 Con and d8/d8 Con in 3E.

With the amount of HD and Con score of the Orm we don't need to worry about the save DC being too low.

Do we need to spell out exposure due to grappling, etc, or just leave to that to the GM, do you think? I guess most PCs are too small to grapple this thing anyway.

I'm leaning towards spelling it out, but it's not strictly necessary.

I also wondered whether the slime is a thin coating or covers its immediate area like the Mucus Cloud an aboleth can produce when in water.

The "trails of slime" in the original description suggests creatures close to it might risk exposure, but the special attacks says "save vs. poison at -1 if you touch it with bare flesh, or die", meaning it only poisons creatures who make direct contact with it.

Here are some possible models to consider:

Neotropical Toad
Poison (Ex): A neotropical toad’s poison functions as a contact, ingested, and injury poison.

Contact: Fort DC 14, initial damage stinging, burning, numbness in area touched for 1d6 hours. Poisoned legs force a subject to fall prone while at the same time reducing the subject's land speed to 5 feet. Poisoned arms or hands make it impossible for the subject to use objects or cast spells with somatic components. Venom touching the tongue make it impossible for the subject to use magic items requiring command words or cast spells with verbal components, and makes verbal communication impossible. Secondary damage none.

Ingested/Injury: Fort DC 14, initial damage nauseated for 1d6 hours, secondary damage death.

The save DCs are Constitution-based and include a +2 racial bonus.

Lumbrineris Worm
Venomous Bristles (Ex): Any creature that grapples a lumbrineris or hits it with a natural weapon is exposed to its poison.

Lumbrineris Bristle Venom: Contact, Fortitude DC 14, initial damage sickened for 1 minute, secondary damage 1d2 Dex and sickened for 1d10 minutes. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Aboleth
Mucus Cloud (Ex): An aboleth underwater surrounds itself with a viscous cloud of mucus roughly 1 foot thick. Any creature coming into contact with and inhaling this substance must succeed on a DC 19 Fortitude save or lose the ability to breathe air for the next 3 hours. An affected creature suffocates in 2d6 minutes if removed from the water. Renewed contact with the mucus cloud and failing another Fortitude save continues the effect for another 3 hours. The save DC is Constitution-based.

 

[freyar]

1d12/1d12 or 2d6/2d6 Con is fine, as you choose.

My preferred model is the lumbrineris worm version, though I suppose we could also allow it to be an ingested poison for any PC crazy enough to eat one of these things.

 

[Cleon]

1d12/1d12 or 2d6/2d6 Con is fine, as you choose.

My preferred model is the lumbrineris worm version, though I suppose we could also allow it to be an ingested poison for any PC crazy enough to eat one of these things.

Let's show some duodecaphilia and go for:

Venomous Slime (Ex): Any creature that grapples a great orm or hits it with a natural weapon is exposed to its poison.

Great Orm Slime: Contact, Fortitude DC XX, initial damage 1d12 Con, secondary damage 1d12 Con. The save DC is Constitution-based.

My preferred model is the lumbrineris worm version, though I suppose we could also allow it to be an ingested poison for any PC crazy enough to eat one of these things.

Aren't contact poisons generally assumed to also be ingested? It's difficult to swallow something without touching it.

 

[freyar]

That looks good to me.

For our revolting appearance. We have a sort-of similar Horrific Appearance in the CC for the Mountain Hag:

Horrific Appearance (Su): The sight of a mountain hag is so revolting that anyone (other than another hag) who sets eyes upon one must succeed on a DC 14 Fortitude save or instantly be weakened, taking 2d6 points of Strength damage. This damage cannot reduce a victim’s Strength score below 0, but anyone reduced to Strength 0 is helpless. Creatures that are affected by this power or that successfully save against it cannot be affected again by the same hag’s horrific appearance for 24 hours. The save DC is Charisma-based.

I'm not entirely opposed to Str damage in this case, but I don't think it would really be an accurate conversion. You know, based on the last line of the original critter ("Whatever game system you use, don’t be surprised if your NPC hirelings, colleagues, or whatever take to their heels at the first sight of the thing."), we could just go with standard Frightful Appearance.