WotC WotC needs an Elon Musk

[Maxperson]

But my monk, or my two-weapon fighter will never be able to keep up with that rogue if DR is used. They can now. Any character or creature that relies on more attacks will be nerfed while those that rely on 1 or 2 big attacks won't.

Scimitars and other light weapons didn't do well against plate, and I'd require the rogue to actually deal damage before sneak attack could be applied. If you can't get through the armor, you can't hit a vital spot.

You'd have to change the way the system works and look at cumulative damage from all attacks in a turn but that doesn't seem to fit the fiction you're going for. I just don't think it's worth it.

And it's not worth it to you. And in fact I don't use my friend's style in my personal game, but I do have fun when I play in his. It works just fine if the system is built around it or modified to work with it, and remember this was his system that he built starting in the late 70's. He didn't tack it onto 5e.

 

[Micah Sweet]

No system will ever work for everyone. HP has worked for half a century and been propagated across most combat based video games from the original Castle Wolfenstein and Doom and continuing with today's games. It works for me and it seems like much of D&D works for you.

You're the one who's always saying things can always be improved, right? Is this an exception to you?

 

[dave2008]

I do rather like the idea someone (possibly @dave2008) posted here that does not reduce generic damage but does reduce the extra damage from crits - in their case I think it was specirfically mitigating the crits go to wounds thing discussed upthread, but I think it generalises beyond that.

Yes, that is how we do it. HP and AC run completely normally until 0 HP or on a Crit. Then damage comes off your bloodied HP (wounds if you will) and that is reduced by any armor you have (armor DR = armor AC-10). You die at 0 BHP.

 

[Oofta]

You're the one who's always saying things can always be improved, right? Is this an exception to you?

In theory could it be improved? I suppose. But the only option that people keep bringing up is to split it into two numbers. I just don't see significant advantage to splitting HP into two numbers based on some arbitrary logic. Based on other's people's posts it didn't work very well for Star Wars either.

Look at ... the Fallout games for example. In that game you have a VATS system where you can target specific body parts. Do enough damage to a specific body part and you can slow the target down, affect how they can attack and so on. It works reasonably well because the computer handles the numbers and effects for you. But in the single player game (I've never bothered with the MMO) it's only something your character can do to enemies, I don't remember it ever happening to my character. My character still just has HP and is fine until dead, like most games.

I can see adding some tactical variety, but it can add significant complexity. In addition death spirals are largely avoided (there are exceptions, of course) because by-and-large they're not fun for the player. So sure. Suggest alternatives. But just saying "it can be better" is meaningless without a proposed system that is actually better.

EDIT: short version - HP are not great, just better than the alternatives for D&D. IMO of course.

 

[Maxperson]

In theory could it be improved? I suppose. But the only option that people keep bringing up is to split it into two numbers. I just don't see significant advantage to splitting HP into two numbers based on some arbitrary logic. Based on other's people's posts it didn't work very well for Star Wars either.

That's an oxymoron. Logic by definition is reasoned and reasoned is the opposite of arbitrary.

 

[Oofta]

That's an oxymoron. Logic by definition is reasoned and reasoned is the opposite of arbitrary.

Much like "realistic hit point system" is an oxymoron.

 

[RealAlHazred]

EDIT: short version - HP are not great, just better than the alternatives for D&D. IMO of course.

I like the way we do it in Hero System. You have two relevant stats: BODY and STUN.

BODY represents serious damage. You might have a high BODY because you're a 9-foot-tall behemoth, or you're a regular-sized person whose got an incredibly strong will-to-live, or what-have-you. That stuff is flavor; the important thing is, high BODY equals hard-to-kill. A typical human has 10 BODY. When you reach 0 BODY you are Dying. You can go to negative BODY, which is very bad; you lose 1 more BODY every Turn if you are at 0 BODY or less. Your character dies when they reach negative their normal maximum positive BODY.

STUN represents ephemeral concussive damage. You take STUN damage from a lot of minor things, non-lethal electrical devices, a cold or flu, whatever. A typical human has 20 STUN. When you reach 0 STUN you are Unconscious. You can go to negative STUN, where you are basically deeply unconscious, perhaps even comatose.

You have a REC stat (short for "Recovery") which represents how fast you recover from physical stress and trauma. A typical human has 4 REC.

BODY damage recovers very slowly. If you are resting full-time in an environment conducive to recovery, you get back your REC in BODY points every week of rest. An absolutely typical human who was Dying at, say -2 BODY when they reached the hospital, will be fully recovered on BODY after three full weeks of bed rest.

STUN recovers very quickly. You get back your REC in STUN points after every Turn in a fight (a Turn is 12 seconds long, and the typical human will get 2 actions in that time), and you can get it back sooner if you spend actions to "catch your breath" or "shake it off." An absolutely typical human who was unconscious at -4 STUN, will be fully recovered on STUN after 6 Turns, or a little over a minute.

It's not super-realistic, but then, neither is hit points. It does feel very cinematic, though, and lets players feel like the characters in an action movie, which is something I like.

 

[Oofta]

I like the way we do it in Hero System. You have two relevant stats: BODY and STUN.

BODY represents serious damage. You might have a high BODY because you're a 9-foot-tall behemoth, or you're a regular-sized person whose got an incredibly strong will-to-live, or what-have-you. That stuff is flavor; the important thing is, high BODY equals hard-to-kill. A typical human has 10 BODY. When you reach 0 BODY you are Dying. You can go to negative BODY, which is very bad; you lose 1 more BODY every Turn if you are at 0 BODY or less. Your character dies when they reach negative their normal maximum positive BODY.

STUN represents ephemeral concussive damage. You take STUN damage from a lot of minor things, non-lethal electrical devices, a cold or flu, whatever. A typical human has 20 STUN. When you reach 0 STUN you are Unconscious. You can go to negative STUN, where you are basically deeply unconscious, perhaps even comatose.

You have a REC stat (short for "Recovery") which represents how fast you recover from physical stress and trauma. A typical human has 4 REC.

BODY damage recovers very slowly. If you are resting full-time in an environment conducive to recovery, you get back your REC in BODY points every week of rest. An absolutely typical human who was Dying at, say -2 BODY when they reached the hospital, will be fully recovered on BODY after three full weeks of bed rest.

STUN recovers very quickly. You get back your REC in STUN points after every Turn in a fight (a Turn is 12 seconds long, and the typical human will get 2 actions in that time), and you can get it back sooner if you spend actions to "catch your breath" or "shake it off." An absolutely typical human who was unconscious at -4 STUN, will be fully recovered on STUN after 6 Turns, or a little over a minute.

It's not super-realistic, but then, neither is hit points. It does feel very cinematic, though, and lets players feel like the characters in an action movie, which is something I like.

Makes sense for a superhero game and seems to fit. What happens if someone gets shot or attacked by a normally lethal weapon? Seems like that would go to body? Or not?

 

[Gradine]

Damage on a miss

 

[RealAlHazred]

Makes sense for a superhero game and seems to fit. What happens if someone gets shot or attacked by a normally lethal weapon? Seems like that would go to body? Or not?

So, there are normal attacks (clubs, fists, etc.) and Killing attacks (guns, knives, and so on). Normal attacks, you roll the dice (let's say 5d6 for a strong punch from a martial artist). The total you roll is the STUN the attack does to the target. BODY is a little more complex -- every "1" on a damage die does 0 BODY, every "6" does 2 BODY, and everything else does 1 BODY per die; on average, a normal attack will do 1 BODY for every die you roll. However, the target has a Defense number which comes off this total, and any armor will add to it. Normal attacks normally do a decent amount of STUN but very little BODY gets through defenses -- they're generally not going to be lethal, but if the monk rolls five 6s on the dice, that's 30 STUN and 10 BODY -- a potentially deadly blow!

Killing attacks are simpler. The same martial artist might do 2d6 Killing with a "knife hand strike" or whatever. You roll those dice and the total is the BODY done by the attack; you multiply the BODY you did by a roll of 1D3 and that's how much STUN you did. But! Normal defenses do not apply to Killing attacks; you need what we call "Resistant" defenses to take damage off, which you usually get by wearing armor. Armor values go from 1 resistant Physical Defense for cloth, to 8 resistant Physical Defense for well-crafted plate.