D&D 5E Why is There No Warlord Equivalent in 5E?

[Kurotowa]

Just to remind folks, even if it's not for you, it's a good thing the Champion Fighter exists. There are people for whom that simplicity is necessary. I played with one. Great guy, but he didn't handle quick tactical decisions or math well. One campaign, he started as a Forge Cleric, but realized he was never using his spells. So with DM permission he reworked the character as a Champion Fighter, and was much happier being able to just hit things.

Maybe it's not for you. Maybe you wish there was a way the baseline Fighter could be more complex and the Champion was trading in those complex options for static benefits. But it is good and necessary for the Champion to exist in the game. The devs were right about that.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I see barbarians as supernatural martials, so to me a limited resource is easier to swallow. That said, even without "magic" you can make limited resources work, as long as you get enough to make it worth it and there are multiple things on which to spend the resource. Level Up's exertion is a good example.

 

[Minigiant]

Just to remind folks, even if it's not for you, it's a good thing the Champion Fighter exists. There are people for whom that simplicity is necessary. I played with one. Great guy, but he didn't handle quick tactical decisions or math well. One campaign, he started as a Forge Cleric, but realized he was never using his spells. So with DM permission he reworked the character as a Champion Fighter, and was much happier being able to just hit things.

Maybe it's not for you. Maybe you wish there was a way the baseline Fighter could be more complex and the Champion was trading in those complex options for static benefits. But it is good and necessary for the Champion to exist in the game. The devs were right about that.

The Champion is not a bad idea.

The bad idea was linking the Champion to the same mechanical subsection (fighter subclass) to the martial subsystem (battlemaster maneuvers).

Maneuvers should have been its own chapter with every warrior class tapping into it like casters do with spells.

Maneuvers were quarantined to make a vocal section happy. Then were opened up when WOTC realized the majority like them.

 

[pawsplay]

My problem with Rage in 5e is the same problem with Rage in 3e. Never knowing when I should use this daily resource. WTF are martials doing with daily resources in 5e anyways, lol.

"I'm an unstoppable rage monster, waiting to be uncorked! ... But is now the right time? What do you think, guys?"

 

[pawsplay]

Just to remind folks, even if it's not for you, it's a good thing the Champion Fighter exists.

I've come to find I really don't enjoy fighters with a lot of finite resources.

 

[Justice and Rule]

I've come to find I really don't enjoy fighters with a lot of finite resources.

What you need is a fighter with recharging/regenerating resources. I have said many times that the way to do resources for martials is to steal the Grit mechanic that Matt Mercer stole from PF1 for his port of the Gunslinger: it's simple, the basic idea of regenerating on a kill/crit is solid and you can even tune it to recharge in different ways dependent on your build if you wanted (I think for my Warlord you could regain Grit/Martial Prowess if someone else killed someone when you gave them an attack). It's a simple but elegant idea.

 

[Undrave]

Don't have a magic weapon or a easy way to deal elemental damage without a consumable on hand, you can end up in a bad spot. You might say "well, always carry a consumable", but most of the classes in the game don't need to. People say you don't need a spellcaster, but if a party went through the adventure I just went through without a full caster, I don't think they would have made it.

And if it's not magical it doesn't really matter if it's a spear or a hammer.

You could argue that, but I've also seen it argued that it's the closest thing we have to an AEDU 4e structure in 5e.

I lean towards the Warlock being one of the better design evolutions in 5e, myself, and wish Pact Magic was the standard casting paradigm.

Same. I really like the mix and match approach and I feel the Cleric would have been perfect for it, with one choice being the style (Laser or Melee) and the second being the domain.

It's the same old issue. The problem is not 5e. The problem is WotC.

I wonder how things would have turned out if the company was called Alchemists of the Coast?

Heck, I had DM's giving me the hairy eyeball for playing an Illumian ("What do you mean, you use your Strength to determine your spells?")!

lol sounds cool!

One of the things that doesn't get enough consideration is that movement, alone, will not keep rage going. So if you don't have an enemy in reach, you need to find a source of damage. If nothing readily presents itself, you can punch yourself, costing your action.

That's why Barbarians keep some javelins or throwing hammers around. You could always try to throw a rock at someone.

What exactly is the issue with the berserker subclass? High damage, high resistance, they seem pretty solid.

Exhaustion is a debilitating effect that makes you automatically useless and it's really, REALLY, dull.

 

[Undrave]

That's true. Should we all pick one of WotC's competitors and invest heavily? You know the one I'd pick.

Fishblade 2nd edition?

 

[I'm A Banana]

The vast majority of spells are completely unacceptable unchanged. Period. They would need to be changed so significantly, they would be barely recognizable.

They cannot have any components, especially not material nor somatic ones. They cannot permit being counterspelled. They cannot cease to function in certain areas because anti-spell effects are in play (AMF, dead magic zone). They cannot involve the vast majority of nonphysical damage types unless fueled by an actual material, e.g. if you bring along a bottle of alchemist's fire, then sure, that could enable fire damage, but unless it's psychic damage I'm not buying it as a martial action.

So, what does that leave? Even if we pretend that all spells are suddenly immune to counterspell and AMF/dead magic/etc., and allow not just psychic but also force and thunder damage (because I'm feeling generous), I'm counting a grand total of 16 damage spells and 31 non-damage spells. Of the damage spells, the only ones I can even remotely justify are sword burst, ensnaring strike, thunderous smite, wrathful smite, zephyr strike, and staggering smite. You may notice that most of these are Ranger spells, and most that aren't are Paladin spells—and are basically just psychic or thunder damage riding atop "do a weapon thing", "scare someone badly", or "push someone around."

Utility spells are even worse. The only ones I can see passing muster are a few heals, hunter's mark, command, and knock, with nothing above 3rd level being even remotely acceptable. Perhaps a dozen spells, max, and even those would need to be reworked to some degree.

This is actually pretty simple to change. I've shown the work. Components and effects that interact with magic and even damage types (though I didn't include those) are not exactly load bearing. This can be embedded into an alternative class feature pretty easily.

Let's take my Martial Exploits feature and see if we can fill out a 20th-level paladin's list of stuff that's not too magical:

• 2 5th-level spells, let's go circle of power and geas. Could hypothetically work in raise dead and/or summon celestial, (you are a commander of such skill angels are volunteering to join your campaign) too. But providing advice to nearby folks and giving unbreakable commands are very warlordcore. I'd like another option or two here, but we're doing OK.
• 3 4th-level slots. There's an abundance of possibility here, but let's go death ward and staggering smite. The latter is a little support-y while also adding to damage (but since we're using the Paladin, damage isn't really our main concern).
• 3 3rd-level slots. Let's do some good heals - aura of vitality for being able to speak a word as a bonus action to heal, and revivify for restoring consciousness. Another level where another spell or two could be useful.
• 3 2nd-level slots. Lesser Restoration for our battlefield medic, and let's say Zone of Truth, because being too scary to lie to is warlordcore.
• 4 1st-level slots. Bless, command, compelled duel, and heroism.

It might be nice to have an alternate class feature to Divine Smite that deals weapon damage instead of radiant damage, and it'd be cool if Lay on Hands maybe could work at range in a pinch (maybe by only doing half the healing or something), but my main point is that you can fluff enough spells as martial exploits that it's viable. Though a few extra spells wouldn't go amiss, there's no strict need to burn the edition down as a failure that cannot possibly deliver on this idea.

But if you don't like 5e in general, then it won't really work for you, because your problems aren't really with warlords, it's with design choices you don't like. (Which is valid! People are allowed to not like design choices! I just think if we want to talk about those choices, let's talk about those choices, not about the warlord as a proxy for those choices)

 

[Staffan]

That was the case with all the leader healing features in 4e.

Sure. My point was mainly that you can't just translate "Inspiring word 2-3x/encounter" in 4e to "healing word 2-3x/short rest" in 5e, because the limiting factors on both are very different.

Start with this premise, warlord shouldnt be capable of healong more than a life cleric. Sounds reasonable, no?

I can agree to that. It should, however, be capable of healing on par with a non-life cleric, or a bard or druid focusing on healing.

I mean, the whole point of the warlord is to make sure you don't need a cleric. It's fine though if they do their "healing" in a somewhat different manner, such as a steady stream of temporary hit points which prevent damage rather than heal it (though since THP are worse than actual healing, you should probably get more of them).

I dunno... maybe there just aren't enough people who want those sacred cows slain?

But sacred cows make for the tastiest hamburgers!

I don’t believe Psionics will ever work in DnD unless they’re build into the system’s lore from the ground up with a very solid definition that isn’t just ‘Magic! Now in Blue Raspberry flavor!’ (everybody know Arcane energy is purple).

That's ridiculous. Arcane energy is pink. Purple, particularly veering on dark blue, is shadow magic.