Pathfinder 1E Why Didn't Paizo Do their Own "Dragon/Dungeon?"

[Umbran]

why does one only need to exist in Game stores and the other needs more outlets when they are offering essentially the same resource?

Well, look for a moment at the price point - I think you'll find that an issue of Dragon sold for less than half of what one of the Pathfinders does.

That is probably key. The subscription model isn't the crux of it - the price point (and the profit margin per issue) is. A magazine operates hoping to make up in volume what it lacks in cover price. If you cannot manage the volume, the thing has to sell at a higher price, and folks won't buy a magazine at a high price.

 

[Scribble]

No. The best answer is that it is economically impossible to put out a magazine that tries to be Dungeon/Dragon, without it having the name Dungeon or Dragon.

You would need to sell in the tens of thousands for a magazine to be successful on the scale that Dungeon and Dragon were. On the other hand you need to sell in the thousands to reach success with an rpg adventure.

And you have to print so many more copies of a magazine to reach those tens of thousands than you need to print adventures, which make the enterprise more expensive and more difficult to pull off.

The reality is that it is much, much, much more difficult to run a magazine than it is to publish adventures.

It is as I said also more expensive. Even Paizo said so in the quote above, but if you're not gonna take their word for it, I guess you're not gonna take mine.

/M

I'm not saying that. It's not a question of whether I believe you or Paizo. It's not an issue of my thinking anyone is deceiving me.

It's that I don't understand it. It doesn't make sense to me no matter how many times either you or Paizo say it, without an explanation. (which is the reason for the post.)

The explanation is what I'm after not just a restatement of the original statement.

Which is why I said the "they can't legaly do it" made the most sense to me. Because thats so far the only one with an explanation behind it.

I said already that yeah, there would be no hope of making a magazine overnight as big a success as Dragon/Dungeon. That's a no brainer. But I'd be very hard pressed to believe that Pathfinder is = in revenue to what Dragon/Dungeon brought in... So there's already a loss there.

Why not start a new magazine (albeit smaller then D/D) with the idea/hope to grow it into a bigger magazine? They're Paizo. People know they have the ability to do a quality mag. It's not like their a no-name startup.

Sure magazines need more printings, but there's also commercial space being sold (which seems like an added source to me?)

If I'm not understanding the logistics, thats fine. I just want them to be explained!

 

[Scribble]

Well, look for a moment at the price point - I think you'll find that an issue of Dragon sold for less than half of what one of the Pathfinders does.

That is probably key. The subscription model isn't the crux of it - the price point (and the profit margin per issue) is. A magazine operates hoping to make up in volume what it lacks in cover price. If you cannot manage the volume, the thing has to sell at a higher price, and folks won't buy a magazine at a high price.

They also sell add space though. (Does pathfinder do so? I don't know.)

You can't say that doesn't amount to some of their revenue?

 

[buzz]

Why not start a new magazine (albeit smaller then D/D) with the idea/hope to grow it into a bigger magazine?

A smaller magazine, assuming it makes any profit at all, won't make the profit that Dungeon and Dragon were, at least not initially (and probably never). Without that income, how do they pay their employees? Their printers?

More importantly, why do that when they can do Pathfinder and, supposedly, retain their current level of profitability, but without the risk of starting a new magazine from scratch?

On top of this, Dungeon and Dragon aren't going away; they're just going digital. Ergo, they will be competing with Dungeon and Dragon for your gaming dollar, and no one has ever been successful doing that.

I think you need to just accept what Paizo already stated their basic reasoning was: they cannot afford to start a new magazine.

Given that I really like Paizo, and want to see them succeed, I'm really glad they aren't starting a new magazine. They'd go bankrupt, and then everyone loses.

 

[Rauol_Duke]

Pathfinder does not have adds.

 

[buzz]

They also sell add space though. (Does pathfinder do so? I don't know.)

You can't say that doesn't amount to some of their revenue?

How are they going to (profitably) sell ad space in a magazine that isn't Dungeon or Dragon and won't be available in major retail outlets?

 

[kenobi65]

They also sell add space though. (Does pathfinder do so? I don't know.)

You can't say that doesn't amount to some of their revenue?

I don't believe that Pathfinder has ads.

And, yes, ad revenue is a good chunk of a magazine's revenue...but the amount of money you can charge for your ads is based on your circulation base. And, the quote from Paizo indicates that they didn't feel that they'd be able to get a circulation base for a new magazine that'd be anywhere near what they had for Dragon and Dungeon.

Also, the "dead tree" magazine industry, as a whole, is in terrible shape right now, particularly for those types of periodicals for which online content is a viable alternative (and, as has already been pointed out, they'd be competing directly against the online Dragon and Dungeon, not to mention any number of other sites, for readership).

I'm not an expert in the ins and outs of running a magazine, but I've got no reason to believe anything other than "the business model didn't look good." Starting a brand-new magazine, in almost any genre, is a bad business idea these days.

 

[Rauol_Duke]

You can't say that doesn't amount to some of their revenue?

Would the same advertisers paid for the same add-space in these new magazines as they did with Dungeon and Dragon? Probably not, as the new mag would have been an unrpoven commodity?

 

[Scribble]

A smaller magazine, assuming it makes any profit at all, won't make the profit that Dungeon and Dragon were, at least not initially (and probably never). Without that income, how do they pay their employees? Their printers?

More importantly, why do that when they can do Pathfinder and, supposedly, retain their current level of profitability, but without the risk of starting a new magazine from scratch?

Why not continue pathfinder in their own adventure magazine though. Now they have the same thing, but also with ad revenue. Would the people who continued to subscribe to pathfinder now most likely decide not to if it were a magazine?

On top of this, Dungeon and Dragon aren't going away; they're just going digital. Ergo, they will be competing with Dungeon and Dragon for your gaming dollar, and no one has ever been successful doing that.

Aren't they basically doing so with Pathfinder?

I think you need to just accept what Paizo already stated their basic reasoning was: they cannot afford to start a new magazine.

Again... I DID ACCEPT THIS AS THE REASON. Sorry to be bold... but I keep saying it. I accept that that was their reasoning. I just don't understand it. And I'm looking for understanding. Maybe I'm zen like that, who knows...

Given that I really like Paizo, and want to see them succeed, I'm really glad they aren't starting a new magazine. They'd go bankrupt, and then everyone loses.

Why is that a given?

 

[kenobi65]

Why not continue pathfinder in their own adventure magazine though. Now they have the same thing, but also with ad revenue. Would the people who continued to subscribe to pathfinder now most likely decide not to if it were a magazine?

I'll be very curious to see how well Pathfinder does, on a subscription basis, once all of the Pathfinder subscriptions that were carryovers from Dragon/Dungeon subscriptions wear off. I suspect a lot of their initial subscriptions were from these carryovers, from people whom Paizo already had money from.

In my case, my carryover subscription got me the first three Pathfinder installments. I was very impressed with the quality...but the theme and tone weren't something that interested me, and I didn't re-up the subscription to complete this first adventure path.