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Wand of Cu Light vs Wand of Vigor, Lesser
- Thread starter tomBitonti
- Start date
Elder-Basilisk
First Post
A few points to consider:
1. Yes, wands of lesser vigor are more gold-efficient than wands of cure light wounds.
1.5 Wands of cure light wounds have several other advantages, however:
1.6 As discussed, they are usable by more classes
1.7 They work 5.5 times as quickly. By the time you're level 6, wands of cure light wounds aren't combat healing any more so the "now" bit is irrelevant. However, if you're sixth level and your fighters need to heal 45 hp after a gruelling combat, getting it done in 8 rounds leaves you with plenty of room on the min/level spells. Getting that done in 45 rounds means those min/level spells will be running out by the time you get to the next combat or will not have fully taken effect by the time enemy reinforcements arrive.
WRT Mass Lesser Vigor, it's a useful spell but it suffers from the problem that:
1. It's one hit point per round. In combat, that's not so special by the time it can be cast; out of combat, the multiple targets will often be wasted.
2. Compared to mass cure light wounds, it's better if you want to heal the party after a fight, but mass cure light wounds is not used to heal parties after fights. Mass cure light wounds is in-combat healing.
2.5 Mass cure light wounds is also a very weak spell for 5th level. The only reason it's ever cast is because it doesn't need preparation and consequently can be substituted for a good spell that's not useful at the moment. If it had to compete with flame strike and spell resistance on its own, it would never get cast.
On the whole, I don't think the vigor spells are overpowered. They're useful and powerful, but they have their drawbacks. If you worry about power creep, the only one you need to be wary of is lesser vigor (because it makes non-combat healing slightly cheaper). It can be dealt with by either including more multi-part encounters or by moving it to 2nd level.
1. Yes, wands of lesser vigor are more gold-efficient than wands of cure light wounds.
1.5 Wands of cure light wounds have several other advantages, however:
1.6 As discussed, they are usable by more classes
1.7 They work 5.5 times as quickly. By the time you're level 6, wands of cure light wounds aren't combat healing any more so the "now" bit is irrelevant. However, if you're sixth level and your fighters need to heal 45 hp after a gruelling combat, getting it done in 8 rounds leaves you with plenty of room on the min/level spells. Getting that done in 45 rounds means those min/level spells will be running out by the time you get to the next combat or will not have fully taken effect by the time enemy reinforcements arrive.
WRT Mass Lesser Vigor, it's a useful spell but it suffers from the problem that:
1. It's one hit point per round. In combat, that's not so special by the time it can be cast; out of combat, the multiple targets will often be wasted.
2. Compared to mass cure light wounds, it's better if you want to heal the party after a fight, but mass cure light wounds is not used to heal parties after fights. Mass cure light wounds is in-combat healing.
2.5 Mass cure light wounds is also a very weak spell for 5th level. The only reason it's ever cast is because it doesn't need preparation and consequently can be substituted for a good spell that's not useful at the moment. If it had to compete with flame strike and spell resistance on its own, it would never get cast.
On the whole, I don't think the vigor spells are overpowered. They're useful and powerful, but they have their drawbacks. If you worry about power creep, the only one you need to be wary of is lesser vigor (because it makes non-combat healing slightly cheaper). It can be dealt with by either including more multi-part encounters or by moving it to 2nd level.
shilsen
Adventurer
As Patryn and EB have quite cogently argued, the Vigor spells aren't really overpowered in comparison to the Cure spells, though they may seem so at first glance if you just look at the final amount of damage cured and nothing else. As a DM, I actually prefer the PCs to be using Vigor spells and wands for out of combat healing since it needs no dice-rolling and saves time.
CLW i sbetter in combat at levels 1-2.
Then Vigor is much more usefull.
If practicaly cuts in half the cost of healing after combat, which is a VERY common thing to do. It isn't a very "niche" role for a spell.
I mean, it's something too common to be so drastically changed by a splat book spell.
It really makes CLW wands useless.
Jeff Wilder
First Post
I'm a little bit curious as to what level folks are that cure light wounds remains useful during combat.
In our games, by 5th level or so the only use cure light wounds sees in combat is if someone goes unconscious (and even then higher-level cure spells are preferable and lesser vigor works very nearly as well).
At 13th level (our current level in the Shackled City campaign), casting a cure light wounds during combat would be a complete waste of a round. And, as I've said, outside of combat lesser vigor is much superior.
In our games, by 5th level or so the only use cure light wounds sees in combat is if someone goes unconscious (and even then higher-level cure spells are preferable and lesser vigor works very nearly as well).
At 13th level (our current level in the Shackled City campaign), casting a cure light wounds during combat would be a complete waste of a round. And, as I've said, outside of combat lesser vigor is much superior.
Saeviomagy
Adventurer
I'd just like to point this out.
A CLW takes 1 round. You can be zapped with multiple ones in a single round. The typical party has AT LEAST 2 people capable of using a CLW wand.
A lesser vigour takes, I believe, 11 rounds. Even if people stack them on you, it still takes the full duration. Also, I believe it's cleric only? So you're probably down to 2 people AT MOST.
Even OUT of combat, that's a HUGE difference.
Each lesser vigour is taking a MINUTE. A hundred hitpoints (not an inconceivable amount by any standards) takes almost 10 minutes to heal with lesser vigour. CLW could (potentially) do it in 2 minutes, less if you have multiple wands.
You can CLW the entire party to health before the party rogue finishes taking 20 on checking the next door for traps.
You can CLW the entire party to health before your bulls strength wears off.
You can CLW before reinforcements arrive.
Lesser vigour just won't cut it.
A CLW takes 1 round. You can be zapped with multiple ones in a single round. The typical party has AT LEAST 2 people capable of using a CLW wand.
A lesser vigour takes, I believe, 11 rounds. Even if people stack them on you, it still takes the full duration. Also, I believe it's cleric only? So you're probably down to 2 people AT MOST.
Even OUT of combat, that's a HUGE difference.
Each lesser vigour is taking a MINUTE. A hundred hitpoints (not an inconceivable amount by any standards) takes almost 10 minutes to heal with lesser vigour. CLW could (potentially) do it in 2 minutes, less if you have multiple wands.
You can CLW the entire party to health before the party rogue finishes taking 20 on checking the next door for traps.
You can CLW the entire party to health before your bulls strength wears off.
You can CLW before reinforcements arrive.
Lesser vigour just won't cut it.
Last edited:
FireLance
Legend
Fundamentally, time is an often-overlooked resource.
The superiority of the vigor range of spells over the cure range of spells depends greatly on how much time the PCs have to spend. If the DM likes to run games where the PCs can take as much time as they want, the vigor range of spells will have the edge. Still, I don't see how giving the PCs access to twice the healing per spell or per gp is going to significantly reduce anybody's enjoyment of the game.
For the record, I also think that the vigor range of spells should be Transmutation and not Conjuration (healing), so that Augment Healing would not work with them.
The superiority of the vigor range of spells over the cure range of spells depends greatly on how much time the PCs have to spend. If the DM likes to run games where the PCs can take as much time as they want, the vigor range of spells will have the edge. Still, I don't see how giving the PCs access to twice the healing per spell or per gp is going to significantly reduce anybody's enjoyment of the game.
For the record, I also think that the vigor range of spells should be Transmutation and not Conjuration (healing), so that Augment Healing would not work with them.
