D&D 5E The Magical Martial

[dave2008]

Be kind of silly of me to ask for rules for rolls that are already in the rules, wouldn't it? I bet you if I looked over all of the rules for every single version of DnD and all of its clones... a lot of the things I'm asking for already exist.

So, if I'm asking for rules, and I'm not in the DnD Older Editions sub-forum, which is specifically for discussing "D&D 4E, 3.x, AD&D 1E and 2E, OD&D, and other editions here, as well as variants such as 13th Age." And I'm not in the Pathfinder Sub-forum.... I'm probably talking about the current 5th edition of the rules, aren't I?

This is the general D&D form - so anything goes. However, this thread was tagged 5e, so you have a point there.

 

[dave2008]

I'm trying very hard to parse this.

If we don't use our reality as the basis of fantasy... then fantasy would then somehow become more like our reality to the point of becoming identical?

How?

I believe it is generally impossible for humans to not view a fantasy world with respect to our own lives and reality. I think it is natural, OK, and unavoidable even. Do you think, sitting at home, that you can put down the keyboard and summon a demon or cast fireballs with enough training and research? I don't think so, you know that is fantasy and different from our reality.

A big reason some people play RPGs is to do something beyond what they can really do after all.

 

[Minigiant]

Not sure what you're getting at here.

1e and 5e's don't share the same basis of reality and everything in between.

5e has Arcane, Divine, Primal, and Ki energy flowing in or around every PC.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Yep, that is my preference (though not a requirement).

Interesting, that (the bold part) has never been my point or the point that I have seen anyone make (but I dropped out for a good portion of the discussion). I am fine with gaining supernatural strength just through training in a fantasy world. My point, and I think @Micah Sweet 's point has never been about in fictional reality of the game world, but game jargon for the players (not the characters). It would simply be an acknowledgement that in this setting characters surpass what is physically possible in our world/reality. It could be one line of text in the book and be done.

Micah at least has repeatedly stated that such training needs to be called out as supernatural, because human training can not reach those limits. Or it needs to be stated that humans (and only humans) are supernatural beings that are not like earth humans.

Of course, he also wants this written into the class description, PHB, or other sources before we can begin allowing any abilities.

 

[Chaosmancer]

So basically, I feel like you are pointing out why it matters. All of this confusion is created because the designers didn't care enough about making a distinction. I think the game rules (not the game world) would be more clear if we had clearly defined game terms.

Actually, the confusion comes because the Designers were making a single, slim design decision, based in sacred cows of older editions, and meant it only to apply in that narrow field.

See, because that confusion on Paladin Divine Health vs Paladin aura does not matter for Dispel Magic. Dispel Magic states you can target a "magical effect" but it further specifies it works on spells. Counter spell only works on spells.

The entire problem comes that Anti-magic works on spells and magic items, but was worded broadly to attempt to cover other aspects. Take out Anti-magic... and nothing else cares about this distinction. Everything else only targets spells and abilities that replicate spells. It isn't that the problem comes because the designers didn't care to separate mundane, extraordinary, supernatural and magical... it is that Anti-magic was attempting to be broad... and people are insisting on these definitions to "make sense" because they have a specific vision of fantasy.

And anti-magic itself exists.... to curb the power of spellcasters and "level the field" for the weaker martial characters to shine. And so, we come full circle. We need to define martial abilities as supernatural, because anti-magic was phrased broadly, because in old editions they needed a way to turn off magic, because it was too powerful and overshadowing martials, which is still a problem, so we are seeking new abilities that people are insisting on definitions before allowing.

 

[Gammadoodler]

I believe it is generally impossible for humans to not view a fantasy world with respect to our own lives and reality. I think it is natural, OK, and unavoidable even. Do you think, sitting at home, that you can put down the keyboard and summon a demon or cast fireballs with enough training and research? I don't think so, you know that is fantasy and different from our reality.

A big reason some people play RPGs is to do something beyond what they can really do after all.

It seems like you are arguing that fantasy settings should diverge from reality.

Which is also what we are saying. I'm not sure what the disagreement is?

 

[Tonguez]

Micah at least has repeatedly stated that such training needs to be called out as supernatural, because human training can not reach those limits. Or it needs to be stated that humans (and only humans) are supernatural beings that are not like earth humans.

Of course, he also wants this written into the class description, PHB, or other sources before we can begin allowing any abilities.

And of course most other people will accept that when the introduction blurbs in the book refer to “heroic characters who explore fantasy worlds together” it means that the characters are “Heroic, Fantasy humans” not mundane earth humans

 

[Chaosmancer]

I believe it is generally impossible for humans to not view a fantasy world with respect to our own lives and reality. I think it is natural, OK, and unavoidable even. Do you think, sitting at home, that you can put down the keyboard and summon a demon or cast fireballs with enough training and research? I don't think so, you know that is fantasy and different from our reality.

A big reason some people play RPGs is to do something beyond what they can really do after all.

But here is the rub.

How much do we need to call out?

I'm going to go back to One Piece. There is a weird thing that people have noticed about the series. Some people, inexplicably, are BIG.

There... is no real explanation for this. No real pattern. Sure, there are giants in the series, but none of these characters ever even hint at having Giant blood or being related to giants. They are just... huge people.

And, sure, there are people who investigate, who come up with theories, because there are massive mysteries in the One Piece world and everything seems to be done with purpose and intent... But most of us just accept that these people were just born big. And that if they get old, they will shrink small. Hyogoro the Flower was a massive dude in his youth, shrank down to three feet tall in his old age, then in the final battle flexed and grew to eight feet tall.


And... did Oda NEED to explain any of it? Does the fantasy world break down if we have super tall humans? OR humans who can change their size drastically? I don't think so.

And this is where I come at this from in terms of high level characters performing incredible feats... It kind of doesn't need an explicit explanation that these things are only possible because of [X]. First of all, explicitly making [X] something means it starts cutting out other concepts. We can't have fighters shattering stone because of their fighting spirit if we declare that they do so because they all learn the Iron Bones technique and have reinforced their muscles and skin with magic. I like being able to match the "power source" to the specific character. But also... as long as it isn't a spell, then it doesn't matter. The only thing it is doing is telling people their dragon-slaying, demi-god fighting human fighter isn't like a US Marine and is something more impressive. We... kind of know that. It is a fantasy game, and we are playing fantasy heroes, and even if we are playing human fighters... it seems we kind of accept that they can do some crazy fantasy feats. Without having to define them as "this is a magical training technique" or "this is because of soul refinement" or whatever other explanation we could possibly come up with.

 

[Chaosmancer]

And, again, if we end up with something like a skill focus, where a character can chose "Investigation: Focus - Once per short rest, you can view the past of a scene and know what happened in the area with precise detail" and you want to explain that as soul magic, or a mystical technique for aura reading, or just being sherlock holmes level talented... I'm fine with any of those explanations. I like all of those explanations.

I just don't want to be forced to call out ONE of them as the only true one. I feel like people can do that for themselves. Decide their own limits on "well, this would be a magical effect, and this would be a training effect with no magic, and this is just weird things because my character is a Phantom Rogue who can talk to ghosts". If we leave it open, then people can fill in the blank with whatever makes them the most comfortable. And I'm fine with that for each individual.

I rankle at the idea that we need to have ONE explanation for EVERY ability and that is the only "TRUE" and "HONEST" explanation. Like all the others are inferior or lies.

 

[Vaalingrade]

I believe it is generally impossible for humans to not view a fantasy world with respect to our own lives and reality. I think it is natural, OK, and unavoidable even. Do you think, sitting at home, that you can put down the keyboard and summon a demon or cast fireballs with enough training and research? I don't think so, you know that is fantasy and different from our reality.

A big reason some people play RPGs is to do something beyond what they can really do after all.

Then why is is forever an uphill battle to unshackle these fantasy worlds from the yoke of the mundane?

Why can't the fantastic actually be allowed to be fantastic without some express magikal faerie bippody boppoity booping it into being? Strong men with mighty thews can't just jump real good, hit real hard, or even just intimidate people without having to produce bonafide proof the pixie dust and unicorn farts to explain how the did a thing a really strong guy can do.