D&D (2024) The Great Nerf to High Level Martials: The New Grapple Rules

Sigh

Same with most Fantasy heroes. Ain't none of the three main characters from Mistborn getting emulated in DnD. Can't emulate Link and most of his strengths or abilities, or Sora. Curran can't be emulated in DnD. Klbkchhezeim can't be emulated in DnD. High Priest Ferdinand, Tavi, Blake Thornburn...

Seriously, I could go on. I didn't pick a superhero because they are some sort of ideal. I picked them because they are one of the few set of characters that I KNOW everyone is familiar with.



Sure, you could claim that it is just an ability that she can never fail to climb, and that she has a magical ability to jump, and she has a special boon that increases her unarmed damage.... but what you are doing here is saying "These abilities cannot be modeled in the current set-up of DnD, and so therefore we need to make exceptions" which is one way to handle things, but immediately highlights that DnD is failing to grasp the archetype. Not that the archetype is somehow unreasonable, but that it is just not possible with the rules, and therefore it can't be done, instead of seeing that "it can't be done with the rules" is what we are point out.
Agreed. It is something I really dislike with the system. You need magic to be cool. If you don't have magic you need to rely on class abilities. If you don't have cool class abilities (champion cough) then you can't do anything but do standard attacks.
 

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My monk, who is now using the 2024 playtest rules, can wreck the face of any caster of a comparable level. Seriously. It isn't close.
Yeah I really like what I hear about the new monk.

My chief issue isn't with PVP, though. It's more about how gameplay compares between classes with magic and classes without.
 

Yeah I really like what I hear about the new monk.

My chief issue isn't with PVP, though. It's more about how gameplay compares between classes with magic and classes without.
Usually people who play martial classes care most about wrecking face or solving puzzles. Without magic.

It is just frustrating if your martial character wrecks face less good than an average caster.

So even if the new monk is great, the fighter needs to be equally great, though different.

Right now it looks like the monk is faster, more tanky, has more options and can lock down spellcasters better and all this while being naked. I'd be frustrated as a fighter to be honest.
Luckily a last balance pass with some number tweakings should be enough.

The new second wind helps the fighter a lot. And weapons masteries and the improved indomitable helps the fighter feel better in other departments.
 
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Agreed. It is something I really dislike with the system. You need magic to be cool. If you don't have magic you need to rely on class abilities. If you don't have cool class abilities (champion cough) then you can't do anything but do standard attacks.
Which is good enough for some players. If those reliable class features are good enough to always perform at 80 to 90% of the best abilities of comparable classes, and be able to outlast them and perform at 120% afterwards, everything is ok.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
Charisma is used to Manipulate. Seems far more accurate IMO.

I agree Mindful is a bit of a stretch, but I couldn't think of another M word for wisdom.

Sure, but so can intelligence or wisdom. Calling all Charisma manipulation is too much of a negative connotation for no reason.

And, as much fun as the alliteration is... it isn't needed.

Power
Precision
Hardiness
Deduction
Awareness
Magnetism/Willpower

And that works fairly decently.
 

James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Look, you only need the following stats:

Hit.
Smash.
No Sell Hit.
Notice Stuff.
Make People Do Stuff.

You can add "Know stuff", but generally, much of actual brains stuff is handled by the player, not the character anyways. And "Make People Do Stuff" is generally inferior to "Con DM" so it can likely be dropped.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
Restraints have a DC to break out of. For example metal manacles are DC 20.

They also have health, 15 to be exact. They also have weight, 6 lbs.

And none of that applies to Rope, the stuff I was talking about. And while a DC 17 to burst rope sounds pretty high, it wouldn't be if you have a +7 to Strength, and we never see her burst ropes with her arms.

The "Weightlifting" skill would also apply to breaking out of restraints, and for "bend bars lift gates" stuff generally. Catwoman would lack proficiency in this, as well as lack any special feats relating to it.

Strength equals athleticism. Not necessarily weightlifting.

Sure, I don't deny that Catwoman would be bad at bending bars, lifting gates, or bursting steel chains. That's kind of my point, she doesn't do those things, so giving her a +7 strength makes no sense. You seem to weigh training and proficiency far higher than you should in these instances.

Let's try this. Imagine a Vampire. Vampires in fantasy are incredibly strong. They can throw grown men through brick walls, break steel with their bare hands, rip cell doors from stone.... and in DnD this is represented by an 18 strength. You want to give very athletic woman Selena Kyle a strength of 24 because she jumps good. This does not work.

As DM, I rely on narrative adjudication for any effort. It must make sense before a dice roll can ever happen.

According to Objects, in the DMs Guide (246), the character must have the "right tool" to destroy an object. "Can a Fighter cut through a section of stone wall with a sword? No." "Use common sense."

So no one armed with a sword can harm an Earth Elemental? They are made of stone as well. Heck, a Caster could have animated that stone wall you declare the fighter cannot cut, using Animate Objects, and then, suddenly, the fighter is allowed to cut it?

Use Consistent logic.

The 5e rules say more than merely hit points.

Where in the PHB does it say more? Sure, the DMG says you need to have the "right tool" and enough time, but other than saying you can't cut through stone with a sword (conveniently forgetting all the times you can) it doesn't say anything more than that. And I'd be a little miffed as a player if I picked a weapon, and then was told a whole bunch of enemies are completely immune to that damage, because "common sense" and not game rules stated so.

Part of emulating the superhero genre is designing the appropriate spells at the appropriate levels to represent genre go-tos.

Things like flight and laser beam eyes are already done.

Players can alter the thematics of any spell to better match the superhero concept.

So, your real point is "alter the scale to make things sound like they are superhero level, and then they are actually superhero level"?

Well no duh, I could make a 30 strength fail before the might of a housecat if I just altered all the baseline assumptions about reality enough to make it work.

A spell or magical ritual can shake a planet. In the Forgotten Realms and other official settings, cataclysms caused by spells are part of the world history.

In the comic book cited, Thor used his most powerful magic possible.

Yeah, spells and magic never actually given to the players, or explicitly forbidden from them. Other than wish, which isn't shaking things in that manner, nothing in 5e that has stats for the players to use has that level of power. Not even close. Destroying a large city is something most player's can't even get close to accomplishing.
 


Yaarel

🇮🇱He-Mage
Yeah, spells and magic never actually given to the players, or explicitly forbidden from them. Other than wish, which isn't shaking things in that manner, nothing in 5e that has stats for the players to use has that level of power. Not even close. Destroying a large city is something most player's can't even get close to accomplishing.

In my games, anomalous magic can be done via special "rituals". What are official Elf "mythals" are an example of these kinds of "rituals". Each ritual can be for any kind of effect, of any kind of magnitude, but come with specific requirements, and use a relevant skill check. The requirement can be anything, such as meditate for an hour, involve a group of a hundred people doing it, find and implement rare ingredients, time with specific astronomical event, or whatever. Some rituals are intentional with requirements whose fulfillment is unlikely.

That said.

Re Thor, his hammer is an epic tier artifact. In D&D, this kind of magic item is the kind of means that sometimes can cause local, regional, or planetary cataclysm.


And none of that applies to Rope, the stuff I was talking about. And while a DC 17 to burst rope sounds pretty high, it wouldn't be if you have a +7 to Strength, and we never see her burst ropes with her arms.
I am happy that tearing a rope apart requires a reasonably high DC.

You have a point that the 24 Strength Score by itself would be +7, making it likely for Catwoman to burst out of a rope.

I would rather resolve the difficulty by making rope DC 20. (Then the metal manacle is also DC 20, because only its weaker hinge or lock catch needs to be broken, rather than the material strength of the metal cuff itself. In the case of the rope, it is the material strength of the rope, and rope can secure massive ships in storms.)

That said, I think I am ok with Catwoman having a Strength Score of 22, so at least she wouldnt "take ten" from a passive check to automatically break out. In any case, there would be no proficiency bonus from a Weightlifting skill.


Sure, I don't deny that Catwoman would be bad at bending bars, lifting gates, or bursting steel chains. That's kind of my point, she doesn't do those things, so giving her a +7 strength makes no sense. You seem to weigh training and proficiency far higher than you should in these instances.
Heh, the discussion of the metal manacles is slightly moot, since D&D would use either Strength or Dexterity to escape a restraint.

But yeah, the focus here is the use of Strength specifically.

The proficiency bonus can add anywhere from +2 to +7, or +4 to +14 if expert. So the training in Weightlifting is a big deal for tests requiring brute force.


Let's try this. Imagine a Vampire. Vampires in fantasy are incredibly strong. They can throw grown men through brick walls, break steel with their bare hands, rip cell doors from stone.... and in DnD this is represented by an 18 strength. You want to give very athletic woman Selena Kyle a strength of 24 because she jumps good. This does not work.
D&D Vampires cannot rip thru steel. Its +4 Strength is the same as anyone else with it.


So no one armed with a sword can harm an Earth Elemental? They are made of stone as well. Heck, a Caster could have animated that stone wall you declare the fighter cannot cut, using Animate Objects, and then, suddenly, the fighter is allowed to cut it?

Use Consistent logic.
Something like that.

The 2014 Monster Manual approaches this concept of invulnerability by making the Earth Elemental "resistant" to "nonmagical" weapons.

It would be plausible to make creatures that are made out of animate stone (namely self reassembling/regenerating stone without vital organs) to be "immune" to nonmagical weapons.

People speculate that 2024 will discontinue the mechanic of "resistant to nomagical weapons", and simply use the Force damage type to bypass immunity.


Where in the PHB does it say more? Sure, the DMG says you need to have the "right tool" and enough time, but other than saying you can't cut through stone with a sword (conveniently forgetting all the times you can) it doesn't say anything more than that. And I'd be a little miffed as a player if I picked a weapon, and then was told a whole bunch of enemies are completely immune to that damage, because "common sense" and not game rules stated so.
Sometimes, the DMs Guide has core rules that are necessary for playing the D&D game. Here, how to destroy unattended objects. I hope 2024 consolidates this info into the Players Handbook, so the Players Handbook really will have EVERY rule that one needs to play a complete game of D&D.


So, your real point is "alter the scale to make things sound like they are superhero level, and then they are actually superhero level"?
The point is, the high tiers of D&D provide the kinds of effects that duplicate or approximate the superpowers of comic book superheroes.

Superman can innately cast Time Stop, for example, and so on.

It is easy to write up new spells at the appropriate slots for the purpose of representing a specific superpower.


A main difference between superpowers and D&D spells is, the superpower are often "always on". But some D&D spells have extensive duration, such as Mage Armor to thematicize a force body armor. In principle, some spells can have indefinite durations in a balanced way, or even swap out a spell slot for a permanent effect.

I have a design concept where a superpower spell "occupies" a spell slot, instead of expending it, so as long as the slot is "occupied" the spell effect remains indefinitely.
 
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Clint_L

Legend
Usually people who play martial classes care most about wrecking face or solving puzzles. Without magic.

It is just frustrating if your martial character wrecks face less good than an average caster.

So even if the new monk is great, the fighter needs to be equally great, though different.

Right now it looks like the monk is faster, more tanky, has more options and can lock down spellcasters better and all this while being naked. I'd be frustrated as a fighter to be honest.
Luckily a last balance pass with some number tweakings should be enough.

The new second wind helps the fighter a lot. And weapons masteries and the improved indomitable helps the fighter feel better in other departments.
We don't have a fighter in our party, but I like what I see from the new rules. Fighters in general have more options. They are also doing more damage, which wasn't really needed for fighters, but all martial classes got a boost in that department.

We do have a barbarian, and the new rules definitely give him more options, both in and out of combat. It's not as noticeable a change as with my monk, but then barbarians were already in a much better place than monks.

Which is good enough for some players. If those reliable class features are good enough to always perform at 80 to 90% of the best abilities of comparable classes, and be able to outlast them and perform at 120% afterwards, everything is ok.
This reads as very condescending. I have played every class (usually, I'm the DM so I play every class all the time), and I am very familiar with how they play, going back to AD&D. Classes with magic can affect the game in different ways, but I just don't find them overpowering in 5e. So it's not like people are settling for second best. They just enjoy a different experience when choosing different characters. I consider it a good thing that different classes play differently.

When I play a fighter or barbarian, I want the experience of being able to be the big damn hero, wading into battle, shrugging off attacks, and doing tons of damage. That's fun, you almost always have an impact on the fight, and your subclass choice can make an appreciable difference on how you manage your turn. When I play a main caster, I like having different options and the ability to do more funky things on my turn, with the trade-off that there will be some battles where I actually don't accomplish much, despite my best efforts, and others where I am the difference maker, hopefully by coming up with some clever way to combine a spell with the situation and environment to turn the tide.

My current monk, at level 10, can get to a caster and launch an attack from almost anywhere on the map, hitting hard and having good survivability. She can shrug off a lot of control effects and is all but immune to AoE attacks. On top of potentially being stunned, that caster is now poisoned and in a world of trouble. I hope they took a lot of defence or escape spells, or they are probably going to be messed up very soon. Either way, their ability to affect the battle is severely compromised because for them it is now about surviving to the next turn. And my monk never has to worry about choosing the wrong spells.
 

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