D&D 5E The Magical Martial

[Chaosmancer]

You should be able to find it quickly if it exists.

ROFLOL... oh wait, you are serious? If it exists I should be able to find it quickly?

Okay, just because I am morbidly curious, how do you propose I search multiple dozens of multi-hour videos for a single event "quickly"? Read every wiki for every live play that exists?

Here, let me give you an example. I know there is a live play where one of the party members is a Genie, it is one of the only ones I'm currently listening to. Go ahead and find it. I'm sure it won't take long.

It covers a 20 foot radius circle, not a 40x40 square.

Are you... sorry, stupid questions.

20 ft radius = 40 ft diameter. Battle maps are squares. DnD is non-euclidean (ie diagonals are not actually longer than straight lines)

Sure, if you want to be pedantic about it, you will have about three squares on each corner that aren't effected, if you play by euclidean geometry. But most people eyeball it. And if the room is only 40 ft, then even in a fat cross situation where those 12 squares are free, you can twist the fireball to hit the corners. or just off the corners.

What kind of monsters do you think you are fighting at high level?

That is what you are fighting at high level. You aren't fighting enemies from the Monster Manual because those enemies are low CR.

I have taken a few games to high level as well. We've never fought any of those beings. Why? Because none of them were in the setting. That's why I pulled them out. Acerack isn't someone who fits into any old setting, he is a unique NPC villain.

Legendary action: The Archaic uses Teleport

https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/2160296-archaic

My apologies, I don't know how I missed that.

Misty Step. Level 2 spell.

https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/96157-drow-favored-consort

Ah, I wasn't looking at legacy content.

To be clear I said Teleport/plane shift

Yeah, but any enemy that Planeshifts away isn't coming back. So it is kind of a moot point. The closest Planeshift can get you, by RAW, is back in the same city. You aren't going to planeshift out of a fight, then planeshift back into that fight.

When you add in creatures that can move off turn it is over half

Which is not teleportation, is it? You were escaping restraint, restraint makes your movement 0, even if it is off-turn.

That 289 includes duplicates that are published more than one place. It is more like 150 unique monsters.

No it doesn't, I counted it by hand.

No once a round, which is all that is needed to escape the Web. Also other AOEs do not all trigger off turn like web does. That is what makes this option so weak.

Also if it burrows under your web they can't unless they go in the web to do it, because it would have full cover.

And some of them DO trigger like web does, shock of shocks. And yes, you already mentioned burrowing once before. Again, if the dragon is just going to pop out only to use their lightning breath, the wizard isn't the only one made less effective. And if it truly became such a massive burden on the party... you can drop concentration at any time.

Off the top of my head: Heroism, Potion of Herosim, Darkness, Bardic Inspiration, Fog Cloud, Calm Emotions, Countercharm, Heroes Feast, Stand near a Paladin,

TBH I think there are more ways to counter frightened then there are to counter lightning.

Really? Quite interesting. Magic, magic item, magic, Bardic inspiration is a toss-up, but still needs a spellcaster, magic, magic, magic, magic, and a magical martial character.

Really glad to see the non-magical martial able to stand on his own two feet... as long as his feet are magical. Heck, your entire plan relies on him being a magical fighter able to magically increase his size to huge.

Yes they do, Blind Fighting fighting style and closing your eyes eliminates the disadvantage on attacks and checks associated with Frightened without any resource drain .... and in case you missed it most fighters have magic, especially most high level fighters.

I love how the fighter at level 1 totally prepared for fighting dragons by choosing the Blind Fighting Style.

On the other hand I know what tactics you need in an encounter, and Web is terrible in this one. It has almost no chance of doing anything to the Dragon. Something else like Wall of Fire or even Faerie Fire would be a different story but Web is just plain horrible, and there are likely better ways to achieve what you are trying with Web. For example if you didn't have a Rune Knight, with the same 2nd level slot the Wizard could cast Enlarge on the Fighter and he could go grapple and prone the Dragon and while he would not be as good as the RK at doing it has a much better chance of success than Web does.



Here you go, I can back up what I say:

"2) While yes, higher level spells are often stronger, that doesn't mean low-level spells are weak. Web is an example I bring up fairly often, it is a low level spell, and not an IMMEDIATE fight ender, so will the DM use a legendary resistance on it? But, if you fail the dex save, then it takes an action to break out. And if you are trying to make distance, this can translate into two turns of the enemy being unable to hit the party, while granting advantage to the parties attacks. And the fighter.... can't replicate this, unless they take the web spell. The only fighter who even has an ability to restrain an enemy AT ALL is the Rune Knight, and it is a save at end of turn and fire damage."

Notice a word missing here? I do. It is missing the word "Dragon". So, I was speaking generically about Web against legendary creatures. Not specifically against an Adult Blue Dragon.

"Not being able to move, all attacks against you have advantage, all of your attacks have disadvantage, you have disadvantage on dex saves"... not very bad for a lot of enemies?"

"So... 40% chance to restrain the dragon, preventing all melee attacks against the party. For the cost of a 2nd level spell, at 17th level. "

So yes you tried to use it as an example of a low level spell that is good to use on an Adult Dragon. That is where this started

Really? Because those are from a different post, one where... you brought up the dragon. So, you took my generic discussion of web against legendary resistance and what happens if the enemy choose not to use it, and you said "but what about dragons that can move off turn" and started building this entire scenario.

All the things in bold are objectively untrue and you said all them: It is not two turns because it does not take effect when you cast it, it does not make the Dragon unable to move until its turn and it has nowhere near a 40% chance to restrain the Dragon because the majority of time the Dragon will not even be there at the start of his turn

If you actually read the entire post, instead of just the bold part... most of these ARE true for what I was actually saying. IF the enemy chooses not to use their legendary resistance and instead ends up restrained, it CAN be two turns, since one turn of them getting free can get you the distance to make it two turns til they hit you. The 40% chance was YOUR number when you suddenly made this about a blue dragon, I was literally responding to your "Fact" so if it is false, that is on you. And, if the enemy is restrained, they can't move. I was not assuming an enemy with the legendary action to move of turn, I was discussing Legendary RESISTANCE when you started all this dragon nonsense.

So, to recap, you took a generic discussion, made it specific, changed the point of the discussion from resistance to off-turn movement, then spent multiple posts bad-mouthing and berating me for trying to deal with the scenario you altered.

Player agency. Players decide what they want to do, not the DM, not the other players

Why would I as a player want to send the 3rd best person for the job? Do I suddenly want the party to fail?

Planning and talking about how you want to tackle a fight, during the fight, is metagaming. You are discussing options of what each of you are going to do on your turn and that is not information the character whos turn it is would have in his turn. It is metagaming.

No it isn't. Metagaming is using information from outside of the game. In universe, an adventuring party would be able to see everything going on, because it is simultaneous. They have access to information that we, as the players, do not have access to, since we take turns.

For example you are sneaking through the castle and a servant bringing the empty bottles back from the dinner party stumbles across you. You can tell him you are the new palace guards, you can offer him 100 gold to look the other way, you can say were at the dinner party and got lost, you can attack him and try to take him out quickly. But if you sit and discuss which of those you are going to do and who is going to do it; that is metagaming.

No it isn't. And even if it was, do you think that after an adventure or two, the party isn't aware of who the face is? Why would my character step up to lie, if I'm not a good liar? IF the party face is about to say something we know in-character is a bad lie, because over the last three weeks the player might have forgotten, it isn't metagaming to remind them of that information, because their character likely didn't suddenly develop amnesia.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I said that the abstraction breaks the system, yes. It makes no sense, thus, it cannot be used to explain anything in the fiction.

So, an 18 strength doesn't make you any stronger than a 10 strength, because it is all too abstracted to explain anything

 

[Chaosmancer]

Are you cool with superhuman abilities being called out as such? If so, I have no objection and will drop this line of discussion immediately.

I have literally always said I don't care. Yet you have NEVER dropped this line of discussion, you ALWAYS go right back to it.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I mean.. I disagree about it mattering.

But at least if it's in the powers rather than the class, then players have the freedom to headcanon whatever narrative justification they deem appropriate at the character level.

THIS! Literally, this has been my position this entire time. I don't care about the justification, because I change it per character. I just wanted to get the abilities figured out.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I mean.. I disagree about it mattering.

But at least if it's in the powers rather than the class, then players have the freedom to headcanon whatever narrative justification they deem appropriate at the character level.

A freedom they are apparently given only for fighters and rogues?

 

[Micah Sweet]

THIS! Literally, this has been my position this entire time. I don't care about the justification, because I change it per character. I just wanted to get the abilities figured out.

The issue as I see it is that you see no need for any justification for inexplicable supernatural abilities, and I very much do.

 

[Micah Sweet]

So, an 18 strength doesn't make you any stronger than a 10 strength, because it is all too abstracted to explain anything

To explain anything beyond human ability, yes.

 

[Gammadoodler]

A freedom they are apparently given only for fighters and rogues?

Enhh. There's a fair amount of sketchy justification outside of those classes. Power sources for Barbs, Paladins, and Rangers aren't that well defined narratively. The 2024 Monk appears to veering away from eastern mysticism to have more flexible thematics as well.

The more flexibility the better, for my tastes.

 

[ezo]

Humans can study math, and throw fire from their hands. That is supernatural. Humans can study martial arts, and teleport through shadows, that is supernatural. But, what about non-class things? Well... what about feats? I can be a human born with psychic powers. I can be a human who has absorbed enough magic to deal elemental damage with a weapon attack. I can be a human who speaks to animals in their own tongue and is understood (Speech of the Ancient Beasts).

Replace humans with adventurers and we're good. Only adventurers get feats and can have classes and levels. NPCs and/or creatures (if human -- little "h") are exceptions, not the rule.

Humans (big "H") are not supernatural. It is the things they learn (magical), etc. that allows them to do supernatural things.

Humans are just... human.

 

[Chaosmancer]

The issue as I see it is that you see no need for any justification for inexplicable supernatural abilities, and I very much do.

Goody goody gumdrops for you.

Where does a Paladin's power come from? You will DEMAND it must be a god, the paladin must be empowered by a divine being. Nothing else makes sense to you, because otherwise, how can they do things humans cannot do?

Me? A paladin's power comes from the unshakeable convictions they have to their oath. That oath can be to a god, sure, but a paladin is someone who has bound their own soul with strictures that the universe itself cannot bend. And when you are in a fantasy world, and you have convictions that the gods themselves cannot bend, only accept or shatter, then that MEANS something. It grants you abilities beyond the petty limitations of flesh. How does that work? I don't know, how does love's first kiss break a curse, or a broken heart turn you into foam.

You can say "magic" but for DnD, Magic is spells. And I am fine making that distinction between spells and supernatural abilities fueled by the romantic ideals of the self moving the world. Of FANTASY.