D&D 5E The Magical Martial

[Chaosmancer]

I'll add another houserule we've been using which helps Fighters in such situations, another of @DND_Reborn's work:

Action Surge can be used to multiple the lifting and jumping capabilities of the PC by a factor equal to the proficiency bonus.

So, your PC can lift 420 lbs at level 1? Spend your Action Surge and it doubles to 840. At level 5, it triples, and level 9, it quadruples, etc.

Your PC can jump 18 feet with their STR 18? Spend your Action Surge and it doubles to 36, then goes to 48, etc.

This way, a Fighter anyway, can perform superhuman (IRL) but plausible actions in a fantasy game.

Ooooh, I like that.

It wouldn't be hard to expand this to allow Rage to perform similarly. But I don't know if I could as easily see it going to other martials. Monks have Step of the Wind, a Rogue using Cunning Action might be able to jump further maybe?

Monk jumping and mobility is pretty decent right now, I could see letting players spend ki for boosts. Since Rage is longer, I could see them just doubling the numbers, though maybe eventually give them a little more speed. Rogue is tricky. I think rogue mobility with cunning action is generally decent. They are much more urban sprawl specced in my head, so just giving the climb speed fits my conception of them pretty solidly.

Also, another idea I've been thinking of is a modification to Rage. Instead of the way it works, what if Rage increased the Barbarian's Strength by your proficiency bonus???

In levels 1-4, it would be a +1 to Strength-based attacks and damage, instead of just +2 damage. Of ocurse a +1 to Strength checks is not as good as advantage, it helps a bit.

The accuracy aspect is a bit of a problem for me there. Running numbers Yeah, it should be fine, as long as the Barbarian doesn't get a weapon with a modifier. With the 30 strength giving a +16 to hit, they already rarely need to roll to hit anything. It that gets much higher, then it becomes pretty much pointless to roll attacks, you'll just hit.

Other than worrying about accuracy, I do like the idea.

However, look at what becomes possible IF you ever got to level 20? You have unlimited rages, and with Primal Champion could have a Strength 24, bumped up to 30 while raging!!! Time for some fun working the numbers:

Str 30 x 30 = 900 lbs, go Goliath => 1800, go Bear Totem => 3600, allow Rage to multiple lift / jump like Action Sure, and now you have 21600 lbs-- over 10 tons. I think such a system which is build for such power, in a fantasy game and at level 20, while most definitely superhuman, would be acceptable to many groups.

Jump back to level 1. Str 20 x 30 = 600 lbs, Goliath is 1200, Rage x2 would make it 2400 lbs, roughly twice the real-world limit for humans currently. Since this is a raging Goliath barbarian, is that too much of a stretch at level 1? Not IMO.

I like it.

 

[ezo]

Because DnD humans are supernatural beings, just like literally everyone else in DnD.

LOL and so we are back to disagreeing (maybe?).

I've never thought of humans in D&D (any D&D) as supernatural beings. Nor really hardly anyone else...

Your average run-of-the-mill human is just a human. Nothing special about them. Most are simply commoners or guards or whatever. Sure, the game lacks the sim-ruleset to represent the logical limits for actual human beings.

Harkening back to our swimming scenario. D&D doesn't model fatigue or exhaustion well when performing physical activities. In D&D, a PC can swing a weapon all day long without suffering muscle soreness or anything, while we know IRL people do get tired, even a 2 or 3 lb sword will feel heavy eventually! At some point, you're going to stop.

But such "marathon activies" are rarely what is happening in D&D. The game just doesn't plan on things like that, so lacks rules for it. The closest you come are things like forced marches and the chase rules, where exhaustion levels will eventually reduce your speed to 0.

Others have mentioned similar breakdowns, but this is (more or less) mine:

Tier 1: normal real-world life in fantasy, push the limits, but try to keep it in them
Tier 2: action hero and fantasy movie stuff (Die Hard, Conan, LotR, etc.) which seems sort of real-world, but begins to strain credulity
Tier 3: wuxia and such types of stuff. no doubt beyond real-world, but plausible in a fantasy game
Tier 4: borderline or into super-hero-type stuff, in no way imaginable as real-world as seen primarily as supernatural and/or magical.

Given this breakdown, you'll probably understand why I tend to lose interest in D&D games around 12th level or so. 6th-level spells is about the pinnacle for me unless I am in the "mood" for a "high-level game".

 

[Chaosmancer]

Yeah, pretty much. The stat system is too abstracted to make sense the way you want it to.

Why? IT absolutely can make sense with what I am saying. Instead of just shutting it down, why don't you think it makes sense? Remember, this is being used as evidence that humans are already capable of the supernatural in DnD, so just saying "because humans don't get that strong" isn't a good counter-point.

 

[Chaosmancer]

That's what magic weapons and supernatural abilities are for.

What? Being better than everyone else? No thanks. I don't want to pull out an enemy for the PARTY to fight and the weapon users to all go, "Oh, well, not really going to be able to contribute to this fight. Good luck mages." because other than the most powerful of foes, who can sort of delay some actions, this never happens to mages.

 

[ezo]

Ooooh, I like that.

Yeah, I always did as well. But @DND_Reborn has basically retired from D&D and spends most of his time working on our game. We're about to begin another 5E game this Friday, but I doubt he'll play.

Rogue is tricky. I think rogue mobility with cunning action is generally decent. They are much more urban sprawl specced in my head, so just giving the climb speed fits my conception of them pretty solidly.

The only thing Rogue is missing for me is the leaping/jumping ability at higher levels. I like the idea of a rogue leaping from rooftop to rooftop across a 40-foot avenue below. RAW you simply can't do it unless you are a very strong Monk or use spells or something.

The accuracy aspect is a bit of a problem for me there. Running numbers Yeah, it should be fine, as long as the Barbarian doesn't get a weapon with a modifier. With the 30 strength giving a +16 to hit, they already rarely need to roll to hit anything. It that gets much higher, then it becomes pretty much pointless to roll attacks, you'll just hit.

Other than worrying about accuracy, I do like the idea.

It's the main reason I haven't tried implementing it. However, by level 20, superstrong creatures rarely do need to roll to hit. Their CR and Strength alone makes hits almost automatic in many cases IMO.

 

[Chaosmancer]

LOL and so we are back to disagreeing (maybe?).

I've never thought of humans in D&D (any D&D) as supernatural beings. Nor really hardly anyone else...

Your average run-of-the-mill human is just a human. Nothing special about them. Most are simply commoners or guards or whatever. Sure, the game lacks the sim-ruleset to represent the logical limits for actual human beings.

Harkening back to our swimming scenario. D&D doesn't model fatigue or exhaustion well when performing physical activities. In D&D, a PC can swing a weapon all day long without suffering muscle soreness or anything, while we know IRL people do get tired, even a 2 or 3 lb sword will feel heavy eventually! At some point, you're going to stop.

But such "marathon activies" are rarely what is happening in D&D. The game just doesn't plan on things like that, so lacks rules for it. The closest you come are things like forced marches and the chase rules, where exhaustion levels will eventually reduce your speed to 0.

Humans can study math, and throw fire from their hands. That is supernatural. Humans can study martial arts, and teleport through shadows, that is supernatural. But, what about non-class things? Well... what about feats? I can be a human born with psychic powers. I can be a human who has absorbed enough magic to deal elemental damage with a weapon attack. I can be a human who speaks to animals in their own tongue and is understood (Speech of the Ancient Beasts).

Sure, not everything a human can learn to do is obviously magical, but at the same time... even the baseline human is "better than human" at everything. A commoner human is considered a 10 in every stat. An Adventurer human gets +1 to everything. We accept that orcs are supernatural strong, dwarves are supernaturally tough, elves are supernaturally graceful... and a human can match every single one of them.

We just keep assuming that every human in DnD has the same limits as us, for no other reason than because we have those limits.

Others have mentioned similar breakdowns, but this is (more or less) mine:

Tier 1: normal real-world life in fantasy, push the limits, but try to keep it in them
Tier 2: action hero and fantasy movie stuff (Die Hard, Conan, LotR, etc.) which seems sort of real-world, but begins to strain credulity
Tier 3: wuxia and such types of stuff. no doubt beyond real-world, but plausible in a fantasy game
Tier 4: borderline or into super-hero-type stuff, in no way imaginable as real-world as seen primarily as supernatural and/or magical.

Given this breakdown, you'll probably understand why I tend to lose interest in D&D games around 12th level or so. 6th-level spells is about the pinnacle for me unless I am in the "mood" for a "high-level game".

See, and many people keep telling me that it instead looks like this for human fighters.

Tier 1: normal real-world life
Tier 2: normal real-world life in fantasy, push the limits, but try to keep it in them
Tier 3: normal real-world life in fantasy, push the limits, but try to keep it in them
Tier 4: action hero and fantasy movie stuff (Die Hard, Conan, LotR, etc.) which seems sort of real-world, but begins to strain credulity

Which is frustrating, because the magical characters aren't this limited. And it all stems from this conception that humans are just bog-standard humans and cannot rise above that limit unless the word "magic" is in their class description.

 

[Chaosmancer]

The only thing Rogue is missing for me is the leaping/jumping ability at higher levels. I like the idea of a rogue leaping from rooftop to rooftop across a 40-foot avenue below. RAW you simply can't do it unless you are a very strong Monk or use spells or something.

Yeah. Swapping Dex for jumping ability helps, I also think I would allow them to essentially "double jump" like if they lept 20 ft, landed briefly on a pole, then lept off the other 20 ft. Which doesn't really help, but I could see them being much more "perfect balance" to make it work where monks just soar.

That or just let cunning action double it. That is the only other way while keeping the rules mostly RAW.

It's the main reason I haven't tried implementing it. However, by level 20, superstrong creatures rarely do need to roll to hit. Their CR and Strength alone makes hits almost automatic in many cases IMO.

Yeah, we had a barbarian with a Belt of Storm Giant Strength and a +3 Glaive, and it really got boring for most everyone, because he could hit most enemies unless he rolled a 1, and since he still recklessed on every attack... it was all just crit fishing.

 

[Micah Sweet]

And that includes plenty of supernatural potential. Because DnD humans are supernatural beings, just like literally everyone else in DnD.

Agree to Disagree. That's all there is to it.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Why? IT absolutely can make sense with what I am saying. Instead of just shutting it down, why don't you think it makes sense? Remember, this is being used as evidence that humans are already capable of the supernatural in DnD, so just saying "because humans don't get that strong" isn't a good counter-point.

Because they don't. The maximum lifting capacity for a Strength 20 is simply not superhuman by real life standards. If a creature in D&D is supposed to actually have superhuman strength, the number should exceed that. But it doesn't, because simplicity and abstraction were the design priorities. Ergo, the numbers don't make sense.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Humans can study math, and throw fire from their hands. That is supernatural. Humans can study martial arts, and teleport through shadows, that is supernatural. But, what about non-class things? Well... what about feats? I can be a human born with psychic powers. I can be a human who has absorbed enough magic to deal elemental damage with a weapon attack. I can be a human who speaks to animals in their own tongue and is understood (Speech of the Ancient Beasts).

Sure, not everything a human can learn to do is obviously magical, but at the same time... even the baseline human is "better than human" at everything. A commoner human is considered a 10 in every stat. An Adventurer human gets +1 to everything. We accept that orcs are supernatural strong, dwarves are supernaturally tough, elves are supernaturally graceful... and a human can match every single one of them.

We just keep assuming that every human in DnD has the same limits as us, for no other reason than because we have those limits.



See, and many people keep telling me that it instead looks like this for human fighters.

Tier 1: normal real-world life
Tier 2: normal real-world life in fantasy, push the limits, but try to keep it in them
Tier 3: normal real-world life in fantasy, push the limits, but try to keep it in them
Tier 4: action hero and fantasy movie stuff (Die Hard, Conan, LotR, etc.) which seems sort of real-world, but begins to strain credulity

Which is frustrating, because the magical characters aren't this limited. And it all stems from this conception that humans are just bog-standard humans and cannot rise above that limit unless the word "magic" is in their class description.

I already said Tier 3 is a great place for the supernatural where otherwise non-supernatural classes are concerned.

I honestly don't understand what you want. I am completely down with fighters etcetera having superhuman abilities. I'd love to help design some. For some reason, you are against calling it what it is and letting that halt the discussion. I mean the thread is called, "the magical martial". What's wrong with calling a supernatural ability...supernatural?