D&D 5E The Magical Martial

[Micah Sweet]

Did you need an explanation for why Dire animals exist? What about Ghosts, did you need an explanation for why ghosts exist before you allowed them in your game? Or what about about Rocs, did you need someone to tell you that Rocs are all hit by gamma radiation and that's why they can grow larger than elephants?

See, because to me, you are conflating two things as the same thing. You want characters who can do amazing things without magic? I agree, because I like not having to be a spellcaster for every character. For me, magic and spells are the same thing.

You want them to be non-supernatural? What are you talking about? My champion fighter could be a tiefling, meaning they are a supernatural character. My Battlemaster can be a magical training robot. My Thief Rogue can literally be a deadman come back to life. These characters ARE supernatural. You mention the new berserker barbarian, I agree, the damage it can do in combat is great. Even better is the Primal Knowledge ability where they can channel the primal power coursing through them to improve their agility and senses. Because it lets all barbarians be more competent at skill checks. It is also, completely supernatural.

I'm not trying to tell people what to like or what not to like. I was never going to sit here and say "you can jump 100 feet because your fighter learned the Jump Good spell." but I am going to point out that there is plenty of media where jumping large distances is something that normal, non-magical humans do. You can say it is "superhero territory" and I'll tell you, so is dueling the Lord of Hell on a planetoid flying towards the mouth of a god-eating star monster. Every spellcaster gives reality and physics the middle-finger constantly, by high levels they can start on the process of making their own dimensions (Demiplane used to LITERALLY make another dimension) but we can't have fighters get too much like figures of myth and legend, they need to stay grounded through all 20 levels.... because we just ignore the places where that already isn't true, because the game never explicitly says "you are supernatural" even by level 20.

Supernatural and spell-like are different things in my view, and they always will be. A character can have no ability to cast spells and still have supernatural abilities. The barbarian and the monk are good examples of this.

 

[Micah Sweet]

It's actually pedantry... only one "n".

Yes, you can roll Strength to break thens. "Breaking bonds" is an example in the PHB, page 176, first column, second bullet point.


Well, ogres can try to do it. If you actually use the rules of AC/HP for objects, the chance of an Ogre doing it (in a single action) would be pretty low, around 0.85% or 1 in 117 attemps or so.

If you want to go the Strength check route, it still isn't great. I mean, again, it depends on the DC you want to give it. I'd go at least DC 17 (using the AC value), which means the DM would have to roll 13+, or just 40% chance of success. Like I said, not great, but decent.


Perhaps you simply enjoy more violent entertainment than I do?


Yeah, I can agree I would love to have better rules for it, myself. FWIW, personally I have no issue with a fantasy fighter doing such things, but it would be around tier 3 for me (if you are talking about breaking through stone walls, etc.).


Well, it sort of does. I mean, Ogres do 2d8 with their Greatclub instead of 1d8 because it is a "Large" greatclub suitable for a Large creature. Likewise, a Huge Fire Giant does 6d6 with its "Huge" greatsword, not 2d6.

Otherwise, mentioning the desire for rules above, I would grant advantage to creatures based on size, etc. compared to the size of the object they are trying to break, etc. I know it isn't currently a rule, but it would be cool if it was IMO.


No, they do apply to PCs, but a PC would have to deal 27 points of damage to the stone wall to break through/destroy? it.

A high-enough level PC could deal that much damage on their turn, but it would probably be via multiple attacks, such as a Fighter with Extra Attack (2) and/or Action Surge, or a Monk via Flurry of Blows and Extra Attack maybe? Or perhaps a Paladin with a good Divine Smite?

Fighter 11th-level, STR 20, 2d6+5 (maul), 3 attacks via Extra Attack (2) at +9 vs. AC 17 has average damage 8.15 per attack, or 24.45 in the round, close(ish) to 27. It's nearly a 42% chance. Of course, if you Action Surge for another 3 attacks, it jumps up to over 91% (dealing an average of 48.9 dmg in the round).

Monk 11th-level, DEX 20, d8+5 unarmed damage, Flurry for 4 attacks at +9 vs. AC 17 has average damage 6.4 per attack, or 25.6 in the round, which is close to the 27 needed. It's roughly about 47% likely actually.

Of course, all this really just depends on the DM and the weapon. After all...
View attachment 361730
For myself, breaking through a stone wall would require bludgeoning damage (i.e. the maul or unarmed strikes), piercing or slashing just wouldn't cut it.

That Object quote is quite telling. "Use common sense".

 

[Micah Sweet]

Sure, you could use a DC 17 if you want to be as close to the rules as they currently stand as possible. I'd still make it a strength check with proficiency though, simply because breaking stuff is something most monsters and adventurers are well-versed in. It isn't like breaking down doors isn't common as dirt.

More importantly, it would be possible to do, which would open up things for PCs to attempt to do.



I don't know, DMs use it pretty often. Maybe they are just more graphic than yours.



Tier 3 seems pretty solid to me. That's starting around level 9 if memory serves.



Most of the time I've seen it, it wasn't with a weapon. More of a shoulder charge, than a batter's swing.

But, sure, I'd be fine with creatures that are large, or count as large due to powerful build, having advantage on the check.



And for me, I want it to be a check specifically to avoid this. If a PC wants to flavor it as a punch, a flying kick, or a strike with their axe, I'm fine with it. I've seen those sorts of stunts so many times I have no problem with it. Besides, as I've pointed out before, an Axe or a Sword works with 100% efficiency on monsters made out of solid stone or solid steel. Worse you tend to get is resistance, unless the weapon is magical. I think it would be a little silly to tell a player they can cut the head off of a stone gargoyle, but that that same sword cannot cut through a stone wall or a stone pillar, because swords can't cut through stone.

My solution would be to make it much harder or impossible for that (nonmagical) sword to cut through the stone creature by removing some of that abstraction, not by adding more.

And tier 3 sounds just about the right place for fighters, rogues, and other non-supernatural characters to begin being supernatural.

 

[Chaosmancer]

tier 3 is 11th to 16th, i'm pretty sure.

Ah, that works to.

 

[Chaosmancer]

this is why earlier i said that i think the martials need to be bumped up to the rogue's current skill capacity, spreading expertise more generously to the martials lets them break past the swingyness of the d20, BA is a good idea in theory but without expertise there's no significant mitigation of the influence of that lone d20 roll for most classes,


i say martials should get reliable talent on either all their trained skills or class skills, unsure which i'd go with in the long run, and minimum 2 expertise at 1st level, this makes them consistent, reliable and capable.

you know that your level 5 fighter (16 STR), cannot roll lower than a 19 on an athletics check (RT10+PB3+EX3+STR3) but by that same measure they're not going to roll higher than a 29, a range of 10,

this is in comparison to a wizard of the same level making an arcana check who's minimum potential check is 7 (NAT1+PB3+INT3) versus 26 max for a range of 19(20? the numbers say 19 but logic says a d20 should have a range of 20 right?),

so 30% of the time a Lvl5 caster is going to be able to reach the lower rungs of what a Lvl5 martial achieves 89% (i think?) of the time in their best skills. (provided my mental maths is correct, even if i'm wrong i think it should be in the right ballpark), and even if they do get expertise a caster isn't going to have the stabilising factor of reliable talent.

I could see going that way, but there are a few things holding me back from that solution.

1) "Persuasion isn't Mind Control" - Even if all martials got Expertise and could get insanely high skill checks, skills themselves are still limited. Roll a 55 on a Stealth check, but there is no cover to hide behind? Then everyone still sees you, stealth is impossible no matter how high you roll. If the DM has decided the knowledge is unknowable, then no matter how well you roll on your history check, you can't know it. Meanwhile, in both of these situations, spells can just work despite those same conditions. So, I would want a way to go beyond "normal" skill checks.

2) Unreliability - Now, the solution to 1 is to make explicit DCs where you start doing the "impossible", however, then you start making those things inherently unreliable. Meanwhile, outside of combat spells, spells just work all the time. Casting Water Breathing always gives you the same result, for the same length of time. I would like to have some of that reliable power pulled into the skill power idea I have, even if it means making it a limited resource, because being able to say "this is how this will work" is a powerful tool to have.

These obviously aren't insurmountable, and I could settle for martials just snapping the skill system over their knees with expertise and reliable talent, but I do think it would be settling.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Ha ha. Supernatural blood in folks of human (not part human or descended from human) heritage, as defined in the book.

So... a human with fiendish blood in them, who becomes a tiefling, is supernatural. But a human with fiendish blood in them who doesn't become a tiefling is... not? Are we going to start arguing what percentage of blood you need of supernatural origin to stop being considered human and to start being considered something else?

Because that seems to be what you are saying. That until their pure human blood is diluted enough, they are still mundane humans without any supernatural capacities at all.

 

[Chaosmancer]

According to 5e, becoming a vampire makes you as strong as a very strong human, so while the process is certainly supernatural, you don't actually get superhuman strength, since any human could also have an 18 right out of the gates without any aid, and the lifting power of an 18 does not exceed what an Earth human could potentially be able to lift. This was demonstrated above.

18 is not a number limited to humans. 18 strength is also as strong as a very strong goliath, or a very strong dwarf, or a very strong robot, or a very strong orc, or a very strong demon. All of which are supernatural creatures who can often be depicted as stronger than a human.

I mean, is the position now going to be that any creature with a strength sub-21 is only as strong as a strong human? That NOTHING is superhumanly strong until a human cannot reach that level? Instead of noting that, your average human in DnD has a strength of 10, and that things stronger than that are still within the reach of highly-trained, heroic humans on fantastical quests?

 

[Chaosmancer]

Yeah but it slows them down a lot more and if they go around it they need to brun movement for tat right?

I am not saying slowing someone 10 feet per round is awful, but it is not something to brag about or something that is goint to save the day.

It costs anywhere from 5 ft of extra movement to step to the side, to no extra movement if they jump over it. Which since it is a 5 ft square, isn't difficult for anything worth talking about.

And I wasn't bragging or saying it would save the day, I was pointing out it was an effective tool in combat that you kept ignoring, in favor of saying that it is utter trash and not worth anyone's time.

That is not how it started. Go back and read my original post. "Overshadowing" was mentioned by me much, much later.

It started because I said the reason fighters were only good for bashing things is because they invest in Constitution instead of abilities that are useful in the other pillars. I also said the only classes that could put a 16 in Constitution and still be good at all 3 pillars are Rogue, Bard and Ranger.

That is how this started and is why your caster has a 16 Constitution. You wanted to demonstrate a caster good at all 3 pillars with a 16 Con and you failed.

No, I didn't. I made a character who was effective at a broad range of things, that then you decided couldn't possibly be good, because he couldn't solo an ambush.

I play RAW for every class. I would not let a fighter who cast find familiar and was looking through a familiar's eyes make a skill check either.

Rules are rules, follow them or don't follow them at your table as you see fit, but don't use something that is clearly against the rules as an example of why a Wizard is so powerful.



I've said that many times. But to be clear this is over levels 1-20, not a statement that applies at any level. As an example it is quite easy to build a Ranger or Rogue that is level 3 and good at all 3 pillars.



I don't agree at all with the specific examples you posted. I do agree over all levels 1-20 Wizard is the most powerful class in the game. I don't think that means they will automatically "overshadow" other players as dice have far more to do with that then class does.

I don't see Wizards "overshadowing" other players either both because of dice and because not ever player maximizes every build.

Right, you wouldn't let them make the skill check to see if they know what a flower is, because you must be staring at the flower the entire time to make a skill check as it says.... huh, nowhere in the books does it actually say you can't identify something based on a description.

You aren't playing by RAW, you are playing by arbitrary limitations. The caster of Find Familiar could spend a full minute staring, smelling, ect the flower, then say they want to roll nature to identify it... and suddenly they cannot possibly do that, because they can't look at it AND roll on the same turn. It is nonsensical. Meanwhile, I've never had a single DM ever tell me that I can't roll to see if I know what a monster is based on its description from the townsfolk.

And again, you haven't actually addressed the sudden problem. Even my caster who supposedly sucks at combat is an immediate dire threat that needs to be taken out as soon as possible. Meanwhile, they are certainly better than the fighter in the social pillar, and the only thing holding them back in exploration is your insistence that short-term memory isn't a thing that exists. And your only solution is... "Fighter, don't focus on increasing your skills in combat, instead, have less hp, focus on either social or exploration skills, and hope no one decides to be better than you at those things"

Here is what I want... ways for fighters to be better at social and exploration pillars of play, so that they DON'T need to sacrifice the one thing they sort of have going for them ie single target damage and surviving combat.

 

[Clint_L]

Did you need an explanation for why Dire animals exist? What about Ghosts, did you need an explanation for why ghosts exist before you allowed them in your game? Or what about about Rocs, did you need someone to tell you that Rocs are all hit by gamma radiation and that's why they can grow larger than elephants?

I did read it. I think you're trying to mansplain to me why your taste is logical and mine is not.

See, because to me, you are conflating two things as the same thing. You want characters who can do amazing things without magic? I agree, because I like not having to be a spellcaster for every character. For me, magic and spells are the same thing.

See above.

You want them to be non-supernatural? What are you talking about? My champion fighter could be a tiefling, meaning they are a supernatural character. My Battlemaster can be a magical training robot. My Thief Rogue can literally be a deadman come back to life. These characters ARE supernatural. You mention the new berserker barbarian, I agree, the damage it can do in combat is great. Even better is the Primal Knowledge ability where they can channel the primal power coursing through them to improve their agility and senses. Because it lets all barbarians be more competent at skill checks. It is also, completely supernatural.

See above. Also, I think the explanation and mechanic for primal knowledge is dumb and will be implementing it differently.

I'm not trying to tell people what to like or what not to like. I was never going to sit here and say "you can jump 100 feet because your fighter learned the Jump Good spell." but I am going to point out that there is plenty of media where jumping large distances is something that normal, non-magical humans do. You can say it is "superhero territory" and I'll tell you, so is dueling the Lord of Hell on a planetoid flying towards the mouth of a god-eating star monster. Every spellcaster gives reality and physics the middle-finger constantly, by high levels they can start on the process of making their own dimensions (Demiplane used to LITERALLY make another dimension) but we can't have fighters get too much like figures of myth and legend, they need to stay grounded through all 20 levels.... because we just ignore the places where that already isn't true, because the game never explicitly says "you are supernatural" even by level 20.

See above. No, you're not trying to tell people what to like. You're trying to tell them that what you like makes more sense. Because of course it does. To you. I'm not going to refute each of your points, because they aren't relevant to the real issue, and it would just be me trying to explain why your preferences are wrong and mine are right. The real issue is one of aesthetic.

My aesthetic tastes are clearly different from yours. I will buy into a certain amount of exaggeration with mundane characters, but at a certain point they lose me. Fast and Furious-style action is not for me. Aragorn, Conan, Brienne of Tarth, and Logen Ninefingers can't suddenly jump 100 foot chasms. I want there to continue to be room in D&D for characters who are awesome without needing obviously, in your face supernatural abilities.

I don't see much room for further debate between us on this particular issue, because it's like debating pizza vs. burgers.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I am not wrong. A Fighter will take down 3 skeletons a turn pretty reliably. For a Wizard they typically need to be grouped together in an AOE, which is not common, certainly not round after round.

I don't think I have ever seen a Wizard in play catch 8 skeletons in an AOE.

If it is common as you say, can you post some videos of streamed games online showing this? If you can't find skeletons other similar creaatures will do. I think this is a strawman that you've never actually seen in play.

I don't have the time in my life to watch multiple 2 to 4 hour videos, to find a high level party fighting CR 1/2 skeletons, with a wizard, who uses an AOE just to make a point to you. I waste enough of my time spending the hour it takes to go through these posts.

DM once put me in a situation where I caught 50 skeletons with a lightning bolt, it was a silly scenario. More seriously, I have consistently seen casters catching four or five enemies in an AOE. And if I was going to have a bunch of skeletons face a level 18 party, I'd surely have more than 8 of them in the encounter. Considering a fireball covers a 40 x 40 square unless I was dealing with a MASSIVE arena that is going to cover a large section of the room.

Well you missed some .... Solar for example. You also left out all the Dragons that can move off turn. There are only what 25 or so CR16+ in the monster manual? with half of them being Dragons.

In any case here is a list of CR 16+ that can teleport off turn or as a bonus action. This does not include creatures that can move off turn or that are immune to restrained. Add those in and you have more than half of the official published monsters of that level:


Acerack
Adult Amethyst Dragon
Adult Saphire Dragon
Amythyst Greatwyrm
Ancient Amethyst Dragon
Ancient Crystal Dragon
Ancient Emerald Dragon
Ancient Sapphire Dragon
Ancient Topaz Dragon
Androsphinx
Archaic
Zariel
Bael
Blue Abishai
Cosmic Horror
Demagoth titan
Drow Favored Consort
Drow Matron Mother
Drow Mother of Rebellion
Factal Skall
Githzeri Anarch
Iggwilv
Imix
Laeral Silverhand
Lessor Star Spawn Emmisary
Miirym
Moloch
Moledeus
Nightmare beast
Nintra Siotta
Planar INcarnate
Saphire Greatworm
Shadrix Silverquill
Solar
Titvilus
Topaz Great Worm
Trobriand
Vieled presence
Yan-C-Bin
Ygorl

Like I said that is just CR16+ monsters that can do some type of teleport or plane shift off turn.

I missed the Solar? No I didn't. I literally mentioned it. I mentioned four monsters, how did you miss 25% of my examples. Also, "moving off turn" is not teleporting. SO I didn't miss that dragons do that, they weren't teleporting, so I didn't include them.

But, let's break this down:

Named, Unique villains: Acerack, Zariel, Bael, Factal Skall, Iggwilv, Imix, Laeral Silverhand, Moloch, Shadrix Silverquill, Yan-C-Bin, Ygorl, Titvilus

Actually, that's an action: Archaic, Drow Favored Consort,

Planeshift isn't teleport: Drow Matron Mother,

Couldn't Find: Drow Mother of Rebellion, Miirym, Nintra Siotta, Trobriand

Okay, these count: Adult/Ancient/Greatwyrm Amethyst Dragon, Adult/Ancient/Greatwyrm Sapphire Dragon, Adult/Ancient/Greatwrym Crystal Dragon, Adult/Ancient/Greatwyrm Emerald Dragon, Adult/Ancient/Greatwyrm Topaz Dragon, Androsphinx, Solar, Blue Abishai Cosmic Horror, Demagoth titan (though it has to within 20 ft of someone for full effect), Githzeri Anarch, Lessor Star Spawn Emmisary (though it has to be within 15 ft of someone for full effect), Molydeus, Nightmare beast, Planar Incarnate, Veiled Presence

Okay, so I'm seeing a lot of gem dragon, and a smattering of other things. Now, I can't filter out the unique enemies, so I'm going to have to count them, I see 39 statblocks here? Now, you claim was "most" enemies at this level can teleport as either a bonus action or legendary action. Edit: Ah, correction. Your claim was that OVER HALF of the enemies at this CR could do this.

I count 289 statblocks of CR 16 or higher, so your 39 here make up... 13% of all monsters at this level. Does it happen? Yes. Does it happen often? ONly if your DM focuses on these statblocks.

It depends on the initiative order. If it is just the Wizard, Dragon, Fighter in the fight then absolutely he can do it every single round.

If there is a Rogue in there and you assume everyone has

Incomplete thought, and why would I assume it is a party of two people?

He can use 3 legendary actions between his turn and his next turn, the Wing buffet with movement counts as two. I don't understand why this is so hard.

Because you keep making assumptions like the only two people in the fight are the wizard and the fighter. In a normal party, with more than two people, the dragon wouldn't be able to immediately spam their wing buffet after every single turn. The other characters, therefore could hit the dragon with other areas of effect, that the dragon then could not immediately dart away from.

I would prepare to counter Dragonfear before I prepared to counter lightning. But is 65 average damage on a failed save, 33 on a success (which is not easy for a Wizard or a Fighter) and 17 with both a success and resistance.

An attack sequence does 53 if all 3 hit, but some of that is lightning damage too, and none of it is magical.

5 of it is lightning, I looked. Also, I wonder how you would prepare for Dragonfear. DO fighter's have natural immunity to it? Or would you need, I don't know.... magic.

No its not, because if he can;t damage anyone while moveing then all he could have used that for is moving anyway.

The dragon gets 3 legendary actions per turn. IF no one is within reach then there is nothing being wasted because he could not have damged anyone anyway.

Do you not understand this? If you do nothing at all and pick your nose, the only thing he can do with his legendary action is move because no one is close to him. Your Web changed nothing unless there is someone in reach .... in which case they take damage when he moves.



It is actually a bad trade. Again if you do nothing except pick your nose the Dragon dies with Legendary resistances and you have one more spell slot when the fight ends.

Whether the Dragon has 2 Legendarys or 3 or 1 left whe he dies it is irrelevant. The only time it matters is if you actually get him to 0 and there is a spell cast after that which he fails the save on. There is almost no chance that will happen with a normal size party of this level before the fight is over. While you are "making a good trade" the rest of the party is going to kill the Dragon.

Moreover it is not going to get to that because the Dragon is not likely going to have to save at all.

What would be a good trade? A 2nd level magic missile three rounds in a row (assuming he is still alive on the 3rd round). That won't take any legendary resistances but it might actually kill him earlier, save a turn and the damage he would do.

And you just continually prove the point. The only possible things the dragon could do is deal damage, or run away from the web spell. No other party member could have a more dangerous spell ready for him. The only things that could take legendary resistance is my wizard's spells, nothing and no one else is doing anything. Except the fighter who is going to solo the dragon, taking 15 or so attacks for somewhere in the neighborhood of 100 damage at least.

You think in terms of spamming the same move over and over, not in terms of how your tactics can manuever the enemy for your team.

I did not insist that you use Web.

Please provide a quotation for that.

Why don't you provide a quotation that I did? I know how I set up example scenarios. And this constant shifting of the parameters against a singular opponent is not how I do it.

Again please focus on what I said. You put quotes up there and I NEVER said that.

I said - just because it is someone else's default action does not mean you are not playing.

I never said someone else is "making the checks or taking the actions". There is something called player agency YOU decide what YOUR PC does (or tries to do). Not another player, not the DM, not his ability scores or build. YOU make those decisions and that is "playing the game"

Why would I decide to force myself into a situation where I am more likely to cause harm to the party than be helpful? You don't send your 3rd best member to do things, you send the best person for the job. Yeah, I could bully my way to front and INSIST that I get to make the rolls... but when I know someone else is better suited for the challenge, why would I hurt the team that way?

Then don't discuss tactics.

To start with discussing tactics during a battle or encounter is metagaming.

No it isn't.

Discussing them before a battle or encounter you know is coming is not meta, but it is also not fun. I know a lot of tables do it, but I find it immersion breaking, it typically fails to play out like expected anyway and we spend a bunch of time talking about what we are going to do instead of doing it.

If you play instead of talking other characters won't always be the superior choice because the dice will drive the results. The only reason they are the "superior choice" when discussing tactics is because you are making assumptions on what will and will not be successful.

Also, you are so focused on combat, you aren't thinking this through. Encounters aren't just combat. We discuss who is the best to handle a negotiation (when we have the chance to) we discuss who is best to scout, and who is best to hold the back line. We discuss who is going to attempt to get through a trapped door. We don't just all immediately charge forth to be the first person to make any roll, because the dice might favor us. That's just flat out rude. Especially given we are play-by-post and people might not even get a chance to read the post from the DM before someone like me could get five posts deep in responding.