D&D (2024) Playtest Packet 6: They knocked Druid out of the Park

[Chaosmancer]

What I thought you were suggesting, and what I am suggesting, is that the Moon Druid eventually get the ability to use their spell attack modifier (proficiency bonus+wisdom bonus) in place of the wildshaped creature's attack modifier. This would allow them to keep pace with melee classes, minus the bonuses for magic weapons and the like.

Sort of.

1) They already use their own proficiency. That is the facet I wanted to remind you of, because it does matter.

2) I want the OPTION to use the Druid's wisdom in place of their wildshaped forms str or dex... because I'm a greedy person, and I noticed that the Mammoth is getting a +7 strength, which will probably be better than the Druids +5 wisdom modifier.

So with this ability the druid in sea lion form (or any other form) at level 18 would be rolling attacks at +11. Again, not quite as good as a fighter, who is likely +13-14 at this level, but at least in the conversation. At these levels you are fighting foes like ancient dragons, and +6 to hit is not going to get it done.

I agree.

The thing I want to make sure is clear, is that the wildshaped druid is NOT rolling a +6 as a Sea Lion. Because the wildshape rules say that you sub your proficiency for the beast's proficiency, the 18th level Wildshaped druid is rolling a +9 right now. Still not good enough, still would prefer it to be a +11, but I want to be accurate with the information.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I am not saying it is useless, I am saying the same pages could be put to better use

As a DM, I do not want to go to the player's handbook to find monsters. I want to go to the Monster Manual. Monsters in the Monster manual are not something that could be put to "better use" else where.

 

[Mephista]

I feel like one of the few people that absolutely hate the newest druid. I hate that they're basically copying cleric progression. I hate the new Moon druid - I hate that you go get Warden training and learn martial weapons/medium armor, only to never actually use them in fighting, I hate that you don't have a single-animal option, and I'm about as much of a fan of radiance damage as other people were with elemental in the last package - elemental damage that's still around, but part of the base class now. Apparently complaining about that is no longer a thing? Is it just because you can take Thunder and ignore resistances forever? Even if it makes no sense we're repeating air twice and no earth representation.

The rest of the subclasses are alright. But the main druid class and Moon are such a huge miss for me that I'm not happy.

 

[mamba]

As a DM, I do not want to go to the player's handbook to find monsters. I want to go to the Monster Manual. Monsters in the Monster manual are not something that could be put to "better use" else where.

It’s the pages that can be put to better use….

I guess we simply disagree, the Druid should not have to go to the MM, so these should be in the PHB.

I’d rather have other monsters in the MM than 6 or so versions of wolves and other beasts a Druid maybe wants to wildshape into.
I do not want 20% or so of the MM to be Druid focused and other stuff to be thrown out because of page count restrictions. Nor am I particularly interested in having wolves etc. for 6 or so CRs to annoy my players with

 

[nevin]

What is the difference between that and proficiency?

i mean why don't druid just have the same BAB in all forms. Wouldn't that just solve most of the arguments about overpowered underpowered.

 

[mellored]

I’d rather have other monsters in the MM than 6 or so versions of wolves and other beasts a Druid maybe wants to wildshape into.

If the druid could use a curated list of beast-like monstrosities, including the already existing spiders and wolves, possibly at the cost of a slot, then that should fix your issue.

I would still want a chunk CR 5 and 6 beast-like creature, but they could be cool.

A shadow wolf whose howl blankets an area in black fog
A spider queen who can attack with swarms of tiny spiders.
A crocodile that could swim below the surface of the ground and drags creatures under.

If it's fun for the DM, it will also be for the druid.

Just make sure to have a "your DM may approve other creatures" somewhere.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

If the druid could use a curated list of beast-like monstrosities, including the already existing spiders and wolves, possibly at the cost of a slot, then that should fix your issue.

I would still want a chunk CR 5 and 6 beast-like creature, but they could be cool.

A shadow wolf whose howl blankets an area in black fog
A spider queen who can attack with swarms of tiny spiders.
A crocodile that could swim below the surface of the ground and drags creatures under.

If it's fun for the DM, it will also be for the druid.

Just make sure to have a "your DM may approve other creatures" somewhere.

IMO Druids should add monstrosities and Fey to wild shape.

 

[mellored]

IMO Druids should add monstrosities and Fey to wild shape.

Sure. As long as it's curated it could be from any list.

Heck. You could even keep the elementals on the list. Just in case someone really likes being fire

 

[mamba]

If the druid could use a curated list of beast-like monstrosities, including the already existing spiders and wolves, possibly at the cost of a slot, then that should fix your issue.

letting the Druid use monstrosities instead of adding 6 versions of wolves to the MM certainly would alleviate my concern, as that means there are no 6 wolves in it

I do not see that happening though, and while your example ‘beasts’ might be cool for a DM, they fall too far on the monstrosity side for a Druid to use.
I am not seeing WotC allowing monstrosities, and I do not think they should.

The right solution is templates in the PHB, unfortunately it looks like we will get something inferior

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Sure. As long as it's curated it could be from any list.

I’m curious what monstrosities would be a problem?

Heck. You could even keep the elementals on the list. Just in case someone really likes being fire

Sure, and an elementalist Druid subclass would kick ass.