D&D (2024) Playtest Packet 6: They knocked Druid out of the Park

[Chaosmancer]

+5d10 moonbeam

Not going to argue against anyone who want to kill with their claws instead of spells. Certainly a valid option.
But free movable moonbeam is a lot of extra damage.

Sure, I was just looking at the claws and fangs. I figured everyone accepted "+certain spells"

 

[Chaosmancer]

With owlbears and displacer beast avaliable for druid shapes in the new Bauldurs Gate 3 I would love to see some monstrosities added to the druids list of avaliable shapes,

Some yes, but this is the only time I'd say a curated list makes sense. A LOT of things are monstrosities, because it is a catch-all category. And I'm not sure I want Druids turning into Medusa, Minotaurs, Centaurs, Thri-Kreen, ect.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I really like Chaosmancer's suggestion of letting the Moon Druid use its spell attack modifier for melee attacks while wildshaped, or their to hit rolls just don't scale well enough at high levels. For example, a CR 5 Sea Lion only has a +6 to hit modifier, which would be about half that of a typical high level melee, or less depending on magic items.

Well, again, make sure you are accounting for the proficiency swap. The Sea Lion is working with a +3 prof. By 15th level, the Druid has a +5. So, the Sea Lion form would be rolling a +8 to hit, not a +6. Still not as good as I'd like, but we can't forget what the actual value is.

Changing spell slots for beasts or monstrosities is a cool alternative idea, but I would do it same as polymorph (otherwise...why not just polymorph?), and definitely stick to a curated list as a lot of monstrosities are unique beings, highly intelligent, etc. (i.e. not really in line with the beast motif).

Agreed

 

[nevin]

I'm personally not too worried about the Moon Druid damage, because you are forgetting that they get +2d8 damage from the base class. So that mammoth is hitting for 6d8+7 which... yeah, even at level 18 that would make someone sit up and take notice. That's 34 damage on average. And even weaker beasts are going to be doing decent damage with that.

The bigger problem is accuracy. And I think calculating the Wildshape forms attacks and damage using Wisdom makes sense. You get your proficiency too, so the mammoth is rolling at a +12, which is real good. But when you look to the wolf, they would be a +7 using the proficiency, and I'd rather see that as a +9 or 10 by those levels.

hmmm.... 2d4+2d8+2 = 16 damage... that's a bit wimpy. But you'd be a dire wolf and 2d6+2d8+3 = 19 isn't bad. Firebolt is likely doing 3d10 = 16.5, maybe adding the int bonus. The damage might be a little lower than we'd like, but it isn't terrible for a full-caster.

That and the wild shape temp hp... Yeah, I think if we really wanted to make the damage great, all we'd need to do is make the druid add their wis mod to damage, and be able to use their wis spell attack to hit, but the proficiency swap and the extra damage dice are doing a good bit of work.

why don't they just make the base attack by class level?

 

[Clint_L]

Well, again, make sure you are accounting for the proficiency swap. The Sea Lion is working with a +3 prof. By 15th level, the Druid has a +5. So, the Sea Lion form would be rolling a +8 to hit, not a +6. Still not as good as I'd like, but we can't forget what the actual value is.

What I thought you were suggesting, and what I am suggesting, is that the Moon Druid eventually get the ability to use their spell attack modifier (proficiency bonus+wisdom bonus) in place of the wildshaped creature's attack modifier. This would allow them to keep pace with melee classes, minus the bonuses for magic weapons and the like.

So with this ability the druid in sea lion form (or any other form) at level 18 would be rolling attacks at +11. Again, not quite as good as a fighter, who is likely +13-14 at this level, but at least in the conversation. At these levels you are fighting foes like ancient dragons, and +6 to hit is not going to get it done.

 

[mamba]

Druids aren't the only people who use Beasts. Dungeon Masters use them as well. Rarely have I found a time that a combat capable beast was "useless" to me.

I am not saying it is useless, I am saying the same pages could be put to better use

And yes, Templates would be best, but we likely aren't getting them.

agreed, clearly the best option

 

[mellored]

I think the idea of the Moon Druid is that you are shapeshifting into beasts, so I tried to stick to beast-like monstrosities (recognizing that manticore is marginal in that sense).

I suggest that a few times.

More in the context of build your own chimera template. But still monstrosities.

and I really don't know why guardian wolf isn't a beast to begin with.

I really like Chaosmancer's suggestion of letting the Moon Druid use its spell attack modifier for melee attacks while wildshaped,

That seems easiest. No extra math.

Just don't forget the DCs. You don't want to have a DC12 grapple at level 20.

why not just polymorph?

Polymorph is beast only. So it won't allow monstrosities. (Unless it's changed)

But polymorph stuff could work in other ways.

14: wild contagion
When you hit a creature while in wild shape, you can use your bonus action to cast polymorph on them.

 

[Clint_L]

I suggest that a few times.

More in the context of build your own chimera template. But still monstrosities.

and I really don't know why guardian wolf isn't a beast to begin with.

That seems easiest. No extra math.

Just don't forget the DCs. You don't want to have a DC12 grapple at level 20.

Polymorph is beast only. So it won't allow monstrosities. (Unless it's changed)

But polymorph stuff could work in other ways.

14: wild contagion
When you hit a creature while in wild shape, you can use your bonus action to cast polymorph on them.

I like it, though that last ability is crazy powerful so there would have to be some kind of extra cost or limit. Otherwise I'm turning all my party members into T-rexes and all my enemies into bunnies.

 

[mellored]

I like it, though that last ability is crazy powerful so there would have to be some kind of extra cost or limit. Otherwise I'm turning all my party members into T-rexes and all my enemies into bunnies.

All the normal casting rules apply (spend a slot, concentration).

Just switching out free moonbeam action to free polymorph action.

 

[Chaosmancer]

why don't they just make the base attack by class level?

What is the difference between that and proficiency?