D&D (2024) Playtest Packet 6: Monk reactions?

[doctorbadwolf]

I used "hyper-optimization" because I believe the average table already seeks some sort of "basic effectiveness," where many player make choices they feel makes them comptent or effective. And if they don't feel effective, that is a feelbad when it leads to failure. You make it sound like that is "optimization" and I don't consider that "optimization" so, I used a different word. My bad if that came off wrong. I think you and I just define it differently.

When something is twice as good as something else (1d6 v. 1d12), that is not "optimization" so much as a common sense choice. Generally, fighters don't use 1d4 daggers as a main weapon over 1d8 longswords, and that is two die steps. There are 3 die steps between 1d6 and 1d12. That is an even greater disparity. Taking that into consideration, the parallel I am drawing between Monks of the 4 Elements and Monks with Greataxes is way more simple than how you are characterizing it. It's about obvious effectiveness, not reasons why they have different levels of effectiveness. It doesn't matter why, only that there is an obvious discrepancy that leads to an imbalance between choices.

To be honest, I think that Weapon Mastery is tossing a complication into the gearworks of the monk. I like when monk weapons did the same damage as unarmed strikes. Super simple and the monk could use daggers or staves and be just as competent either way. However, Weapon Mastery is for weapons and unarmed strikes are not weapons, which means unarmed strikes would be purely worse than weapons. Maybe we need something special created for the monk called "Unarmed Strike Mastery" which mirrors Weapon Mastery a bit. Take the bit from the Way of the Hand, give it to the base monk, and give something a bit heftier for Way of the Hand. That way, monks can deal their unarmed damage no matter the weapon they are using.

I STILL do not want Hand and Shadow monks all using great weapons because that is not the theme for those archetypes. Great Weapons can be made available via a subclass that a monk can opt into.

You say that not everyone will make that choice. It's not about there being some who have no problem making obviously worse choices. It's about theme and identity for me. Right now UA Paladins don't have ranged smites, because of feedback about theme and identity. Should a rogue be able to sneak attack with a greataxe? I say no. (I'd be fine if they could sneak attack with clubs/saps, though.)

I just cannot be convinced to care, sorry.

The Paladin smite decision was foolish IMO.

But if we must contend with greataxes, out of all the many martial weapons, restricting the monk to simple weapons is very nearly the worst possible way to do it. It’s already absurd that they can’t use polearms and one-handed martial weapons.

 

[Valetudo]

I like using hammers with a dwarf monk.

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

I just cannot be convinced to care, sorry.

The Paladin smite decision was foolish IMO.

But if we must contend with greataxes, out of all the many martial weapons, restricting the monk to simple weapons is very nearly the worst possible way to do it. It’s already absurd that they can’t use polearms and one-handed martial weapons.

It's not absurd to me. Just because there are large weapons in asian unarmored fighting styles, it doesn't make them "monks". Just because they don't use armor in fiction or in real life doesn't make them "monks". They can be fighters. I don't buy the "real-world martial arts uses any weapons therefore all monks can use any weapons" argument (not saying you in particular are making this argument), because there are also weapon-using "fighters" in all cultures. And because of modern technology advancements in weaponry, martial arts becoming a sport and part of entertainment rather than a primary tool of war, most depictions of martial artists not using armor exist primarily because they don't need to anymore, or because it is pure fiction. Any real world soldier who is a martial arts expert, and is facing hordes of enemies with melee and projectile weapons is still going into war with armor on. A real world martial artist is not going to win against a tiger, or a moose for that matter.

The class structures should be used to create interesting, diverse suites of powers that feel and look different from one another, to give different experiences as part of a game that includes monster-killing and surviving moose attacks (or dragon attacks). It's less about recreating anachronistic styles from real-world sports and entertainment.

An unarmored spiritual warrior that wields humble, simple weapons alongside their unarmed strikes, to show that enlightenment can empower even commonfolk, is pretty darn cool. That is way different than an unstoppable juggernaut of a warrior who is a master of all weapons and armor. That separation of identity is fine.

It sounds to me like some people want "monks" to just be the "fighter" but be mystical, and able to do all that while unarmored and unarmed, or with any weapon because they see monks as weapon masters. News flash. Fantasy monks aren't masters of all weapons.

I think what is missing from the game, that some people crave (including myself), is an unarmored mystical/spiritual warrior that uses a favored weapon of any sort (whether unarmed strikes, throwing knives, katanas, polearms, or greatwords) and uses cool mystical/spiritual maneuvers. That concept does not fit into the monk or the fighter because is too broad to fit into those classes and do it justice. Maybe subclasses for the monk and fighter can give you a taste, but it shouldn't become the baseline of what all monks or fighters are. Monks and Fighters are already established and they deserve those places in the game. The rules just need to be tweaked so they deliver those experiences better.

If someone made a quality Mystic Warrior class like that, I'd check it out.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

An unarmored spiritual warrior that wields humble, simple weapons alongside their unarmed strikes, to show that enlightenment can empower even commonfolk, is pretty darn cool.

I disagree.

To me, it’s silly nonsense as a class conceit, and only belongs in the game as part of a class, maybe a subclass at most.

Monks should be using swords and polearms. They’re mystic masters of arms. The unarmed and Unarmored thing is too restrictive and narrow for a base class, and is a huge contributing factor to the orientalism of the class.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

think what is missing from the game, that some people crave (including myself), is an unarmored

No Unarmored. Optional only.

mystical/spiritual warrior that uses a favored weapon of any sort (whether unarmed strikes, throwing knives, katanas, polearms, or greatwords) and uses cool mystical/spiritual maneuvers.

Yes. The monk.

That concept does not fit into the monk or the fighter because is too broad to fit into those classes and do it justice. Maybe subclasses for the monk and fighter can give you a taste, but it shouldn't become the baseline of what all monks or fighters are. Monks and Fighters are already established and they deserve those places in the game. The rules just need to be tweaked so they deliver those experiences better.

It’s literally what the monk is, broadened a bit to not be basically one character: the class.

 

[James Gasik]

I want Monks using all the wacky weapons associated with the martial arts. Monk's spades, Dan Bongs, Butterfly Swords, Three-Section Rods, Tonfas, Double Chicken Sabers, Escrima sticks, Sais, Jittes, War Fans, Meteor Hammers, hell, even Bagh Nakh!

Or even beyond that, Jackie Chan style levels of using anything in arm's reach as a weapon, from chairs, tables, ladders, helmets, wooden clogs, or skis! Allowing the Martial Arts die to be used in place of weapon damage for anything the Monk picks up is amazing!

Don't get me wrong, I also want to be able to just use Kung Fu to be dangerous, but I see no reason why a Monk shouldn't be able to seize any advantage available to them.

I admit, it's strange for Monks to find themselves needing/wanting magic weapons instead of their martial arts, which was one of my issues with the 2014 Monk, but perhaps paradoxically, taking weapons away from the Monk isn't really the solution.

There are archetypes that give players magic weapons; why couldn't the Monk have a mechanic that says "at level X, anything the Monk attacks with is equal to a +Y weapon, and deals at least dZ damage?".

 

[Valetudo]

I like to make barbys with tavern brawler and beat up monks with my fists.

 

[mellored]

More random ideas.

Discipline Stances
To enter a stance you expend 1 focus and a bonus action. You must use a bonus action on each of your turns to maintain the stance (no additional point cost), which you can do for up to 1 minute.
You gain the following stances.
*Step of the Wind: you do not provoke opportunity attacks...
*Flurry of blows: when you attack..
*Patient Defense: enemies have disadvantage...

Level 5: You learn a new stance...
*Stunning strike

Level 11: you can have 2 stances at once. You must still pay the point cost for both.

So as long as you do the same thing you did last turn, it doesn't cost extra points.

 

[mellored]

Level 11: once per turn, you can expend 1 ki to gain a extra bonus action.

 

[OB1]

So I started playing a Monk in BG3 (PS5 version) over the long weekend and am currently 4th level. I will say that the addition of an extra ki point makes a difference, but I still don't think it goes far enough. My Monk has had to be revivified 4 times already, and I also find myself using a bow far more often than I'd like (I want to punch things). But it did get me thinking about the fixes for the 5.24 monk.

The biggest problem I'm running into with playing the monk in BG3 is that in order to be survivable in melee, I almost have to use my bonus action for Patient Defense or Step of the Wind (Disengage), leaving me with just a single attack. Now, some of this is because nearly every combat in BG3 is Deadly+ (the DM is putting us through the ringer), but the point remains that the end result is that to be effective, I have to lean away from what the class is, using Step of the Wind (Dash) to kite with bow attacks and stay far away from anyone who can hit me.

So here is my simple fix. At 2nd level, you can use your Bonus action to activate Flurry of Blows, Step of the Wind (dash and disengage), or Patient Defense. Spend a Ki point to choose 2, or 3 Ki points to choose 3. And that's it. Doubt that is what we'll see in Packet 7 tomorrow, but I'm convinced it's the answer, and wouldn't be over powered.

Also hoping that they take a lesson from BG3 and make short rests take just a minute, heal up to half your HP and limited to 2 per long rest. That feature is absolutely incredible. Just make it something each PC chooses to do instead of making it a group thing.

Finally, BG3 is absolutely incredible. Nearly as good as playing D&D