D&D (2024) Playtest Packet 6: Monk reactions?

[UngainlyTitan]

Chaosmancer alluded to this, but I just watched the Deep Dive into the UA Rogue, and at about the 45 minute mark when comparing damage from the updated classes, he brings up the monk. It's terrible - at level 13 even when using Flurry of Blows the monk is doing less than half the damage of a berserker barbarian, and about 60% of the damage of a fighter or rogue:


He also explains why weapon masteries are currently useless to the monk; I know a few people in this thread have suggested the opposite, so here's the math if you want to review it.

Long story short: the UA monk is in dire straits and we need to make that clear to WotC when the survey comes out. The good news is that the first version of rogue was widely panned, and this latest one is massively improved, often specifically addressing complaints and suggestions from the community. So there is hope!

I have not watched that video yet but I have also done the math and agree that the monk is way back on where it should be. The monk is only competitive if it gets flurry of blows every round.
My initial analysis does not take masteries into account, but the UA monk is about par with the 2014 Warlock base up till level 10 or so and left in the dust after that. It is an improvement over the current monk (IMO) but heavily dependent on getting flurry of blows off. I think it should have an automatic nick like extra unarmed strike built into the base martial arts.

 

[Mephista]

I have not watched that video yet but I have also done the math and agree that the monk is way back on where it should be. The monk is only competitive if it gets flurry of blows every round.
My initial analysis does not take masteries into account, but the UA monk is about par with the 2014 Warlock base up till level 10 or so and left in the dust after that. It is an improvement over the current monk (IMO) but heavily dependent on getting flurry of blows off. I think it should have an automatic nick like extra unarmed strike built into the base martial arts.

Weapon Masteries are... okayish on the monk at low levels. You can get a bit of extra damage (+0.75 from using two daggers, +0.5 from quarterstaff) or a Vex/Sap from using a handaxe or mace. The increase of average damage from Vex is roughly equal to 1.5, which makes it the best option for pure damage (the value of Sap is harder to quantify here). At level 5, there's no point to using daggers or quarterstaff, while mace.... My math is showing about a 0.5 damage difference from using a mace versus your fists. The math is kind of tricky, as it moves depending if you're using Flurry, regular Martial Arts BA attack, or something else with your BA. But it seems pretty negligable past level 5, and probably worse if your subclass enhances your unarmed attacks in any way.

The increased damage die is better 2014, and the rare instance you use Step of the Wind is better, but...

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I like treantmonks idea of allowing thw monk to use masteries from trained weapons on his unarmed strikes.

At that point, you could also add monk damage to weapons. Treantmonk suggests that it would be sufficient to add the ability at level 5 if it would be too much at level 1 (which I think it would be).

At level 1 I still want a useful defensive ability.
Then every other ability needs improvement. I guess that the idea of adding half damage on a successful save for deflect missile would push it from rather a waste to okish. He also suggests that stunning strike needs an effect on a successful save too, whi I agree with.

Then the monk really needs something after level 8 or so to stay competitive. You can't burn through that many ki points fast enough. Maybe adding ki empowered strikes to add up to +3 to hit as a base feature would be great. Sometimes turning a miss into a hit is worth 1 to 3 ki points. Not often, but once in a while.

Just for the record: at no point did I suggest the monk as presented was fine. I think it is rather easy to fix it, building on that concept, as I said here.
Also I did never suggest that weapon mastery as is is useful for the monk. But any replacement for flex for examle will at least make the monk better at low level, as flex is currently more than useless for them. To be sure I reiterate that I agree, that monks need to be able to use either masteries on unarmed steike or unarmed damage on weapons to stay really competitive.

Or they just need a general damage boosting feature so using a mastery resembles rogues use of cunning strikes. Trading damage for (hopefully updated useful masteries*)


*we know for sure that the masteries are not in their final form as it is stated that they are just reprints of the nonupdated rules from last playtest for convenience... but I guess they should have not reprinted them as some people treat those masteries as if they are final.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

The fiction that currently exists that you don't like. The one that feels like a monk.

If all monks can use two-handed heavy weapons using their Dexterity modifier, that is what they are going to use. I don't want all monks to work that way. Starting at low levels, they will be using Greatweapons for larger damage dice, because they can. Why wouldn't they? That is what all monks would look like.

Maybe at your table, but at most tables people aren’t worried about optimizing. They just play the character how they envision it.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

Weapon Masteries are... okayish on the monk at low levels. You can get a bit of extra damage (+0.75 from using two daggers, +0.5 from quarterstaff) or a Vex/Sap from using a handaxe or mace. The increase of average damage from Vex is roughly equal to 1.5, which makes it the best option for pure damage (the value of Sap is harder to quantify here). At level 5, there's no point to using daggers or quarterstaff, while mace.... My math is showing about a 0.5 damage difference from using a mace versus your fists. The math is kind of tricky, as it moves depending if you're using Flurry, regular Martial Arts BA attack, or something else with your BA. But it seems pretty negligable past level 5, and probably worse if your subclass enhances your unarmed attacks in any way.

The increased damage die is better 2014, and the rare instance you use Step of the Wind is better, but...

My initial analysis suggest that monks really get left behind after about level 10 or so.

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

Maybe at your table, but at most tables people aren’t worried about optimizing. They just play the character how they envision it.

It's not about hyper-optimization. It's about obvious effectiveness of primary mechanics.

If what you were saying was true, people would be playing the 4 Elements Monk because elemental monk themes are popular (ATLA being just one inspiration). But they don't because it isn't as good mechanically. If the design was more mechanically beneficial, far more people would be playing them.

Fighters wielding shortswords are extremely rare because there are better weapons to get the job done. So many people are freaking out over Flex shifting only one die size. Do you think that bumping up the monk's average damage die size from 1d6 to 1d12 doesn't matter? If monks could use Greatweapons, there would be far more pressure to use the obviously better weapons.

 

[Chaosmancer]

It's not about hyper-optimization. It's about obvious effectiveness of primary mechanics.

If what you were saying was true, people would be playing the 4 Elements Monk because elemental monk themes are popular (ATLA being just one inspiration). But they don't because it isn't as good mechanically. If the design was more mechanically beneficial, far more people would be playing them.

Fighters wielding shortswords are extremely rare because there are better weapons to get the job done. So many people are freaking out over Flex shifting only one die size. Do you think that bumping up the monk's average damage die size from 1d6 to 1d12 doesn't matter? If monks could use Greatweapons, there would be far more pressure to use the obviously better weapons.

Personally, I'm fine with the Monk Weapons ability from Tasha's. If you have proficiency with a weapon, then you can treat it as a monk weapon. Then, just having a 1st level feat or something that allows monks access to martial weapons and it is a choice. Yes, a monk can get stronger weapons, but that was at the expense of another feat, and that feels fair, while also allowing for classic concepts like the Naginata wielder.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

It's not about hyper-optimization.

Good thing I didn’t say anything about hyper-optimization, and that’s just a thing you’re falsely attributing to me, then.

If what you were saying was true, people would be playing the 4 Elements Monk because elemental monk themes are popular (ATLA being just one inspiration). But they don't because it isn't as good mechanically.

Lol nope. The 4Elements monk is not fun to play, because it runs out of ki too fast, andthe action economy makes it so you are either a monk or a fire bender in a a given round, but rarely both.

The most popular class, subclass, and race, are fighter, champion, and standard human. All three have options that are obviously objectively more powerful.

 

[Mephista]

My initial analysis suggest that monks really get left behind after about level 10 or so.

Sure, I just wanted to offer an analysis of weapon mastery on the 2024 monk.

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

Good thing I didn’t say anything about hyper-optimization, and that’s just a thing you’re falsely attributing to me, then.

Lol nope. The 4Elements monk is not fun to play, because it runs out of ki too fast, andthe action economy makes it so you are either a monk or a fire bender in a a given round, but rarely both.

The most popular class, subclass, and race, are fighter, champion, and standard human. All three have options that are obviously objectively more powerful.

I used "hyper-optimization" because I believe the average table already seeks some sort of "basic effectiveness," where many player make choices they feel makes them comptent or effective. And if they don't feel effective, that is a feelbad when it leads to failure. You make it sound like that is "optimization" and I don't consider that "optimization" so, I used a different word. My bad if that came off wrong. I think you and I just define it differently.

When something is twice as good as something else (1d6 v. 1d12), that is not "optimization" so much as a common sense choice. Generally, fighters don't use 1d4 daggers as a main weapon over 1d8 longswords, and that is two die steps. There are 3 die steps between 1d6 and 1d12. That is an even greater disparity. Taking that into consideration, the parallel I am drawing between Monks of the 4 Elements and Monks with Greataxes is way more simple than how you are characterizing it. It's about obvious effectiveness, not reasons why they have different levels of effectiveness. It doesn't matter why, only that there is an obvious discrepancy that leads to an imbalance between choices.

To be honest, I think that Weapon Mastery is tossing a complication into the gearworks of the monk. I like when monk weapons did the same damage as unarmed strikes. Super simple and the monk could use daggers or staves and be just as competent either way. However, Weapon Mastery is for weapons and unarmed strikes are not weapons, which means unarmed strikes would be purely worse than weapons. Maybe we need something special created for the monk called "Unarmed Strike Mastery" which mirrors Weapon Mastery a bit. Take the bit from the Way of the Hand, give it to the base monk, and give something a bit heftier for Way of the Hand. That way, monks can deal their unarmed damage no matter the weapon they are using.

I STILL do not want Hand and Shadow monks all using great weapons because that is not the theme for those archetypes. Great Weapons can be made available via a subclass that a monk can opt into.

You say that not everyone will make that choice. It's not about there being some who have no problem making obviously worse choices. It's about theme and identity for me. Right now UA Paladins don't have ranged smites, because of feedback about theme and identity. Should a rogue be able to sneak attack with a greataxe? I say no. (I'd be fine if they could sneak attack with clubs/saps, though.)