Pantheon design

[Upper_Krust]

Here is a potential breakdown of the Norse Pantheon.

This in italics are not really part of the pantheon proper.

Elder Ones
Surtur = LE (pantheon destroyer)
Ymir = CE

Greater Deities
Odin = NG (or maybe CG)
Midgard Serpent = NE (cosmic umbilical)

Intermediate Deities
Tyr = LG
Balder = NG
Thor = CG
Heimdall = LN
Frigga = N
Hela = NE
Loki = CE

Frey = CG
Freya = NG
Njord = CN

Fenris = CE (god-slayer)

Lesser deities
Sif = LG
Bragi = NG
Magni = CG
Idunn = LN
Vidar = N
Uller = CN
Modi = CN
Aegir = CN

Demi-deities
Norns (3) = N
Hoder = LG

Quasi-deities
Siegfried

Hero-deities
Beowulf
Valkyrie

There may be a number of other individuals to consider (Forseti) and it doesn't take into account the gainst of the dwarves. You also have to wonder if the Vanir should be technically included?

Any thoughts?

 

[WarDragon]

I really don't think Odin should be Good. True Neutral seems to fit him best, even if Ysgard in D&D is CN(G).

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

I really don't think Odin should be Good. True Neutral seems to fit him best, even if Ysgard in D&D is CN(G).

I'm just representing the NG Odin from the original Deities & Demigods/Legends & Lore.

 

[CRGreathouse]

You also have to wonder if the Vanir should be technically included?

Any thoughts?

Yes, certainly I think so.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi CRGreathouse matey!

Yes, certainly I think so.

Let me expound a bit, I can see how my initial statement makes me come across like a buffoon.

I meant should we consider the Vanir as part of the Norse Gods tally of '72'*?

*Where...

Greater Gods = 8
Intermediate = 4
Lesser = 2
Demi = 1

I'd also probably have Gullveig as the (Lawful Evil) Intermediate Goddess of Magic.

Gullveig is partially identified with Angrboda and also with Grendel's Mother. Personally I think she is the inspiration for the character Karnilla in the Mighty Thor comic.

http://www.marveldirectory.com/individuals/k/karnilla.htm

 

[CRGreathouse]

U_K, I can't say because I don't understand the justification behind your rule of 72 (not to be confused with the interest estimation rule). Is it just a limit on how much total power can be 'out there', or what? If so then in general I'd think it should apply; if not, I'd have to hear more about your system's description.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

U_K, I can't say because I don't understand the justification behind your rule of 72 (not to be confused with the interest estimation rule). Is it just a limit on how much total power can be 'out there', or what? If so then in general I'd think it should apply; if not, I'd have to hear more about your system's description.

One of the problems I faced initially was that because I wanted to parallel quintessence with numbers of worshippers so that each status would have ten times more than the previous. Quintessence does not parallel Experience Points and therefore does not parallel Challenge Rating. Even if we use Challenge Rating that does not parallel Encounter Level which is where true balance lies.

So you can't set a maximum amount of quintessence for each Pantheon to possess and limit them in that manner because 10+ Intermediate Gods are far more powerful than a single Greater God.

It would have been nice to say each Pantheon can have a maximum 10 billion quintessence.

Or even just say each Pantheon can have 1,000,000 Hero-deities or some breakdown of more powerful gods where each higher status is x10 the previous.

e.g.
Hero = 1
Quasi= 10
Demi = 100
Lesser = 1000
Inter = 10,000
Greater = 100,000

But are 1000 demigods equal to 1 greater god?

So if you want to keep things balanced you can't in good faith go that route.

Likewise you can't simply use Challenge Ratings because by my calculations a 50% increase in CR is a doubling of power. So 2 x CR 10 = 1 CR 15 rather than 1 CR 20.

So I created the '72' method which is an admittedly arbitrary figure (if poignant within numerology) based on what I perceived a typical pantheon which was...

1 Greater God, 9 Intermediate Gods, 9 Lesser Gods and 9 Demigods with potential for 1 extra Demigod which in effect represented the possibility that one of your PCs would become a demigod.

So you could have a Pantheon with simply 9 Greater Gods (Scarred Lands?) and the rest would be quasi-deities (Saints) or below.

The problem with the '72' method is that even it is not ultimately balanced because it doesn't take into account the

So I have been experimenting with a factor 3 system instead.

Hero = 1
Quasi = 3
Demi = 9
Lesser = 27
Inter = 81
Greater = 243
Elder = 729
Over = 2187

 

[Pssthpok]

I like seeing people talk about balancing pantheons, as if it were possible. Even if you found a method to do so, it wouldn't take into account the vagaries of builds (like min/maxing) and equipment, so what's the fuss about? Just add up the combined Divine Rank and call that the "Pantheon Rank" or something.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

Well, another problem I see with pantheon limits is evolution. If say, I took a campaign, say, Forgotten Realms, and advanced the timeline a few millennia, what happens? More people would probably be born, and probably worship something. Does the Qp Potential for the pantheon go up?

Setting a "maximum" only works if the status quo is preserved. If you wanted accuraccy, one should determine how much Qp there actually is available in the world.

Ex: If a god has one worshiper per point of Wp, then figuring out the world's sentient population = Maximum Wp available. (+/- events?) Maximum Power points available = ??? (Infinite?). Maximum Magic points = ??? (Mechanics unfinished, assumed either infinite, steady income, or limited by a universal maximum. [I am mentally picturing resource harvesting like in a strategy game like starcraft, where I get X resource every Y time intervals, possibly depleteing the source]).

Example: So say there are 10,000 people in the world. (Wow, small world?) Barring a huge event, the total Wp out there is 10K. (Though probably not all of those people worship a god or even the same god.) Lets also say that totaling the possible PP of all beings CR 10+ = 10K PP as well. (note, not counting other deities, and it its not likely all these beings will be slain) As for resonance, I don't know. But so far it looks like there is a capacity for this "world" of 20,000 Qp, alowing up to 2 quasi-deities.
Note: Just ideas. I am forgetting some things, I know it.

Other than that, a pantheon should have as many or as few gods as needed.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya matey!

I like seeing people talk about balancing pantheons, as if it were possible. Even if you found a method to do so, it wouldn't take into account the vagaries of builds (like min/maxing) and equipment, so what's the fuss about? Just add up the combined Divine Rank and call that the "Pantheon Rank" or something.

Well part of the problem is that you can't use Divine Rank because Divine Rank is not balanced in terms of Encounter Level its balanced in terms of Challenge Rating.

For example one Greater God is worth a bare minimum of 4 Lesser Gods (or 9 if you use the factor 3 method). So you can't say that one breakdown of Divine Rank 16 is balanced against another breakdown of Divine Rank 16.

Vagaries of the build are irrelevant as long as the core framework is balanced, because there is simply no way to account for vagaries.

I like the name Pantheon Rank though - I may have to steal that.