No More Massive Tomes of Rules

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I think Shadowdark is a nice compromise for me: the rulebook is 300 pages, but also A5 sized, and much of it is inspirational tables. The actual rules could easily fit in 100 pages.

The quickstart rules, which include a sample dungeon and a sampling of the random tables, come in at 138 pages and are sufficient to play Shadowdark for years. (You will eventually need higher level spells and additional monsters, though.) It's wonderfully concise.

 

[Reynard]

The quickstart rules, which include a sample dungeon and a sampling of the random tables, come in at 138 pages and are sufficient to play Shadowdark for years. (You will eventually need higher level spells and additional monsters, though.) It's wonderfully concise.

That quickstart immediately sold me on Shadowdark and I went and backed it in full. It is now what I expect when something otherwise unknown appears on KS for me to even seriously consider backing it. I wouldn't even back MCDM RPG because they weren't far enough along to provide such a quickstart, and I like Coville.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

I want easy reference manuals, with separate boxes/pages separating different concepts. There's no excuse for bloating up your rules text (while still remaining unclear and open for arguments, DnD5e).

The rest of your word count should go to random tables that help set the intended mood/setting/monster behavior/whatever.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

That quickstart immediately sold me on Shadowdark and I went and backed it in full. It is now what I expect when something otherwise unknown appears on KS for me to even seriously consider backing it. I wouldn't even back MCDM RPG because they weren't far enough along to provide such a quickstart, and I like Coville.

Yep, me too. I remember reading about it here and being skeptical it was something I was interested in. I was blown away by Kelsey just saying "here's the game; let me know if you want to pay for, effectively, the higher level material." A definite baller move, and one that clearly paid off.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

I'll bite. What additional 900 pages does Dragonbane need?

I would definitely start by making all enemies have their own personalized action tables...

'Skeletons do not count as monsters' is the stupidest sentence I have ever read in an RPG book.

 

[Argyle King]

I'd be open to buying an XL version of rules as a collector's edition product, printed on 11×17 paper, with maps like pages from an old Atlas.

 

[Celebrim]

I'll bite. What additional 900 pages does Dragonbane need?

If Dragonbane's combat rules are turn based, how does Dragonbane handle a chase scene or other scene that needs more simultaneous action in order to have verisimilitude? Does Dragonbane have a "tackle" type combat trick to throw down someone you are chasing?

Does Dragonbane cover the impact of operating a vehicle or riding a beast? What about vehicles like sailing vessels that require a crew as well as a pilot? Can Dragonbane handle vehicle to vehicle combat?

What about nautical travel rules? For that matter, does Dragonbane handle long distance travel? What about exposure to the elements like heat stroke, frost bite, etc.? What effects to weather have? How does starvation, dehydration, or sleep deprivation impact a character? Do we have rules covering sickness and medical care for the diseased? What are the effects of forced marching or other extraordinary exertion?

Does Dragonbane cover mass combat or being part of mass combat? Does it provide for the DM to have several options such as PC's are participating in the combat as heroes and so can influence the outcome through individual actions? Does it provide for the PC's to participate in combat as commanders and maneuver armies on the battlefield?

What about dynastic play? Does it provide for PC's to create holdings, delegate responsibility to underlings, collect taxes, run businesses and produce heirs? For example, 1e AD&D suggested that you could, but it didn't really provide a framework for handling this from the DMs perspective except fiat and a lot of DM side bookkeeping.

What about underwater combat? What about aerial combat on flying mounts?

What about crafting rules? Lets say I want to make my own magic longsword. How does that happen? Or lets say I want to buy an armoire and a snuff box? Is there a really comprehensive price list out there for bags of coffee or barrels of pine tar or a brick of soap or is the GM just expected to make everything up on the fly?

And does the rules really cover how the world works, not merely for the sake of covering how the world works but for firing the imagination and telling the GM what could be out there. Like, what's the effect of a sacred site of different power levels on magical use? The rules can be silent on stuff like that but then you are leaving it up to the individual GM to have the imagination to imagine a whole world on their own.

I see a lot of OSR type rule sets that port over BECMI or AD&D concepts about these things without realizing just how bare bones and unworkable those are for a GM in actual play. BECMI or AD&D suggested these things existed and were part of the campaign world without actually having playable rules for handling combat between an oared rowship with 300 rowers and 30 marines and another such ship. And I see a lot of people going, "Well, just handle it all by fiat and cinematically, you don't really need rules for any of this. Just let the GM decide what would be the most fun?" But, while you could, there are real limits to that. And you can see this from adventures back in the original "old school" era where instead of having rules in the rule book, every single adventure had multiple encounters where there was a hand crafted minigame trying to handle all the stuff that wasn't in the rules that the GM was supposed to rules bash out in play or at design time.

 

[Reynard]

If Dragonbane's combat rules are turn based, how does Dragonbane handle a chase scene or other scene that needs more simultaneous action in order to have verisimilitude? Does Dragonbane have a "tackle" type combat trick to throw down someone you are chasing?

Does Dragonbane cover the impact of operating a vehicle or riding a beast? What about vehicles like sailing vessels that require a crew as well as a pilot? Can Dragonbane handle vehicle to vehicle combat?

What about nautical travel rules? For that matter, does Dragonbane handle long distance travel? What about exposure to the elements like heat stroke, frost bite, etc.? What effects to weather have? How does starvation, dehydration, or sleep deprivation impact a character? Do we have rules covering sickness and medical care for the diseased? What are the effects of forced marching or other extraordinary exertion?

Does Dragonbane cover mass combat or being part of mass combat? Does it provide for the DM to have several options such as PC's are participating in the combat as heroes and so can influence the outcome through individual actions? Does it provide for the PC's to participate in combat as commanders and maneuver armies on the battlefield?

What about dynastic play? Does it provide for PC's to create holdings, delegate responsibility to underlings, collect taxes, run businesses and produce heirs? For example, 1e AD&D suggested that you could, but it didn't really provide a framework for handling this from the DMs perspective except fiat and a lot of DM side bookkeeping.

What about underwater combat? What about aerial combat on flying mounts?

What about crafting rules? Lets say I want to make my own magic longsword. How does that happen? Or lets say I want to buy an armoire and a snuff box? Is there a really comprehensive price list out there for bags of coffee or barrels of pine tar or a brick of soap or is the GM just expected to make everything up on the fly?

And does the rules really cover how the world works, not merely for the sake of covering how the world works but for firing the imagination and telling the GM what could be out there. Like, what's the effect of a sacred site of different power levels on magical use? The rules can be silent on stuff like that but then you are leaving it up to the individual GM to have the imagination to imagine a whole world on their own.

I see a lot of OSR type rule sets that port over BECMI or AD&D concepts about these things without realizing just how bare bones and unworkable they face that BECMI or AD&D suggested these things existed and were part of the campaign world without actually having playable rules for handling combat between an oared rowship with 300 rowers and 30 marines and another such ship. And I see a lot of people going, "Well, just handle it all by fiat and cinematically, you don't really need rules for any of this. Just let the GM decide what would be the most fun?" But, while you could, there are real limits to that. And you can see this from adventures back in the original "old school" era where instead of having rules in the rule book, every single adventure had multiple encounters where there was a hand crafted minigame trying to handle all the stuff that wasn't in the rules that the GM was supposed to rules bash out in play or at design time.

I'm not interested in a game that can do EVERYTHING. It isn't important to me. I want a game that does the thing it says on the tin well.

But more importantly, most of the stuff you mentioned is missing from most 1000 pages of rules RPGs. 5E certainly lacks the vast majority of that, or doesn't do it any better than Dragonbane. Most 1000 page RPGs are full of questionable prose by people that are too used to getting paid by the word and not interested in actually enabling play.

 

[Celebrim]

Ok.

I'll bite. What additional 900 pages does Dragonbane need?

Now, let me come at this from a different direction. Actual event in my most recent fantasy game:

There is a coach being drawn by six horses along a steep winding mountain path with a sharp turn every few hundred yards. Inside the coach are two nobles and their marriage eligible noble daughter. The horses are panicked. Outside the coach are two footman, a coachman, and a liveried man-at-arms in padded armor with a heavy crossbow and a club, as well as three wights that have jumped onto the coach and are determined to murder everyone. The wights are fighting the servants, smashing the windows, and trying to pull the doors off their hinges to get inside. The PCs are on horseback chasing the coach and two of them want to cast spells while the horse is galloping. When they catch up to the coach, one of the PCs will attempt to stand up on his galloping horse and jump onto the carriage, while another one will attempt to jump on to the tongue of the carriage in order to disconnect it from the horses.

Will the rules of Dragonbane provide enough context, clarity and mechanical support that a novice GM with no prior gaming experience and no knowledge of 18th century carriages will be able to run this scene with confidence?

Think of all the things that might come up or all the questions that the GM might have when they do.

 

[Celebrim]

I'm not interested in a game that can do EVERYTHING. It isn't important to me. I want a game that does the thing it says on the tin well.

Then you aren't interested in anything but one shots and mini-campaigns, and as such, with respect, who cares what you think about the rules because rules aren't for you anyway.

And in any event, that wasn't "everything", that was just the basic stuff you'd expect a fantasy game to do if you came to the game from "Lord of the Rings" or "Game of Thrones" or other fantasy literature.

But more importantly, most of the stuff you mentioned is missing from most 1000 pages of rules RPGs.

Absolutely. Most rules suck.

5E certainly lacks the vast majority of that, or doesn't do it any better than Dragonbane.

I mean you are explaining why I don't play 5e or Dragonbane.

Most 1000 page RPGs are full of questionable prose by people that are too used to getting paid by the word and not interested in actually enabling play.

Agreed, but that doesn't mean we don't need 1000 page RPGs, we just need the designers to actually do their job well and you aren't really complaining about how much rules an RPG has but just how badly written they are.