Playtest (A5E) Level Up Playtest Document #5: Inspiration & Destiny

Welcome to the fifth Level Up playtest document. This playtest contains a candidate for the game’s inspiration and destiny rules.

We also wanted to thank you for all the valuable feedback you’ve given us on the playtest surveys so far. Whether you liked or disliked the material, the survey feedback shapes this game.

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What this is​

This is a playtest document. We’d love you to try out the rules presented here, and then answer the follow-up survey in a few days.

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This is NOT the final game. It’s OK if you don’t like elements of these rules; that’s the purpose of a playtest document. Be sure to participate in the follow-up survey. All data, positive or negative is useful.

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Your survey responses help form the direction of the game as it goes through the development process.

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[tetrasodium]

Can you explain how Metamorphosis for redemption would work? It feels like it's putting a square peg in a round hole. You say it's more "mental" but you literally are switching your character sheet for a monster in the monster manual.

So for instance one of my favorite characters was in a recent campaign that I really enjoyed, he was a Paladin who had accidentally killed my brother and was seeking absolution because he was so wracked with guilt. At 16th level, I turn into a creature of 14th level or lower. If I don't want to necessarily become an angel or whatever, how would I use this to tell the story of a Paladin who has forgiven himself?

That's why I don't see it working too well beyond starting a character with a low cr monster or joining an in progress game with a cr monster a few levels behind the party & a few class levels but even joining a higher level game that way is iffy take this bone knight I randomly pulled from the monsters list on ddb joining a L10 game with 8 levels of cleric

Spoiler: statblock

Right of the bat you gained eight levels of paladin spellcasting complete with a bunch of paladin spells and multiattack at a cost of two levels of cleric casting, using the guidance on phb164 (multiclassing section) that makes you a level 12 spellcaster. But if you flip that around & try to take a particular spellcasting monster & pair it with the nearest spellcasting class it's maybe more justified.

Back in 3.5 they had a more robust system of level adjustments (different from just cr) & effective character level (LA+class levels) but it was not without flaws. The biggest problem is that all the damage resist/immune & spell resist walls off a gigantic chunk of monsters that might otherwise be usable. A good thing going for it however is the highlighted bit here

The as true polymorph blurb later is almost irrelevant if your character will continue being able to adventure because either the creature is one of a very few reasonably powered things for a pc to start as & spend the first level or two in as is or it is something you need to sit down with your gm to hash out what it looks like & how it will work. I did a breakdown of the monsters that a player could reasonably start the game as as is or with minimal changes & even there I note a lot of "work with your gm on x" o say things like how there is a big chunk of possibly viable monsters walled off as probably not usable because of x.

 

[Faolyn]

I think there is definitely a break down in the Name, Description, and then the mechanics. You are right when I go back to it it says "a nation" and "kill for your devotion." However the mechanics don't really support it. [...] I would point out that the conditions of getting inspiration are:

• Complete a quest
• keep a promise to your own detriment
• keep an innocent safe while seriously endangering yourself
• commit an act of genuine self-sacrifice

People have, historically and recently, done horribly bigoted, terribly violent, extremely dangerous, or just plain stupid things because of their devotion. Many people are really devoted to their faith and because of that, have performed terrible acts of bigotry--and many believe that by performing those acts, they are keeping innocents safe. And many of these people have done so knowing that they are breaking laws or are at risk of being killed, and choose to continue to do so, seeing themselves as a martyr to the cause.

Strong devotion to a causes--almost any cause--is not in and of itself an inherently good thing, and the best way to reflect this is to change the list of things that grant inspiration to include "willing to perform terrible acts in the name of your beliefs (so long as it benefits your allies or moves the story forward, a la Chaos)."

Can you explain how Metamorphosis for redemption would work? It feels like it's putting a square peg in a round hole. You say it's more "mental" but you literally are switching your character sheet for a monster in the monster manual.

Well, you don't have to turn into another creature if you don't want to.

OTOH, this is FantasyLand, and perhaps when one truly finds redemption they do turn into something else. Look at Beauty and the Beast (at least the Disney version; been a while since I read the real story), where the prince was cursed to be a beast but when he managed to redeem himself, he became a prince again.

Or you could simply rewrite your character sheet to reflect your new status. If you played a really evil guy--say, an Assassin rogue, a Conquest or Oathbreaker paladin, a vile Necromancer, or an evil fighter or barbarian--then perhaps you can switch or reroll your stats and be a Redemption paladin or a Life cleric or that Mercy monk that's going to be in Tasha's instead. You've truly sworn off that part of your life and can no longer access the powers you once had.

Heck, you could say that you were an angel, and because you killed a brother-angel, your superiors turned you into a mortal until you could prove yourself worthy of forgiveness.

It's not necessarily a perfect fit, but are there really d6 Motivations for Redemption? Let's see...

• Complete redemptive deeds commanded by the gods (a la Hercules)
• Pay a weregild--which might be rolled into the above, and likely isn't a major issue for most parties. The weregild would have to be extraordinary: you can't just bring back a bunch of gold; you have to bring back the giant diamond being hoarded by the evil dragon Xarthranum.
• Bring the dead people back to life or free them from whatever curse has befallen them--my character for an upcoming Icewind Dale game has feels guilty that they were unable to properly warn against a particular monster attack, and now their tribe is all either dead of turned into werewolves, and one of their goals is to find the survivors and remove the curse.

Can you think of a few more? ATM, I'm stuck.

 

[tetrasodium]

Can you think of a few more? ATM, I'm stuck.

Here are two from mm & volos

Pretty much anything to do with gruumsh is going to be extremely toxic to any campaign & as a result it makes a good example of a creature one could be that walks away from that life but keeps the skills. Meanwhile the lore attached to the iron shadow in volos is pretty much good enough to slot yourself into any campaign or party as is just by pointing at it but at level 3 when you take your first class level you shrug & declare that you changed allegiance or have recieved orders to go under deep cover as a productive member of this party "because orders".

 

[Faolyn]

@tetrasodium, neither of those are examples of motivations for a redemption destiny, which is what I asked for.

I do agree that turning yourself into a creature whose CR is equal to your level -2 is likely too OP. The writers should note that a creature's CR is determined almost entirely by specific combat-related abilities and ignores many traits that are very powerful. I could create a pixie that could cast wish at will and it would still technically count as CR 1/4.

In LU's defense, though, I will say it's quite likely that no PC will actually achieve this goal before reaching the upper teens in level, if not higher. Especially since the actual write-up says that you can choose to not achieve it until 16th+ level (which most games never go to) and is also quite vague in how one can "achieve a level of divinity, become immortal, access primal knowledge, permanently transcend [their] natural state."

Now, if LU is choosing to include really old-school Gold Box Immortals rules--which I would love--then we might have our answers.

 

[tetrasodium]

@tetrasodium, neither of those are examples of motivations for a redemption destiny, which is what I asked for.

I do agree that turning yourself into a creature whose CR is equal to your level -2 is likely too OP. The writers should note that a creature's CR is determined almost entirely by specific combat-related abilities and ignores many traits that are very powerful. I could create a pixie that could cast wish at will and it would still technically count as CR 1/4.

In LU's defense, though, I will say it's quite likely that no PC will actually achieve this goal before reaching the upper teens in level, if not higher. Especially since the actual write-up says that you can choose to not achieve it until 16th+ level (which most games never go to) and is also quite vague in how one can "achieve a level of divinity, become immortal, access primal knowledge, permanently transcend [their] natural state."

Now, if LU is choosing to include really old-school Gold Box Immortals rules--which I would love--then we might have our answers.

Yea, the old level adjustment scale with a graduated buyoff for all its problems at least tried to give a benchmark for a gm to judge against. 5e's monsters are less attached to a formula than 3.5 was though, even a cr1 imp would be monstrously broken while I probably came across dozens of cr 2 &3 creatures so uninspiring that they didn't even warrant mentioning. Consult with your gm about the exact nature is a really good way of setting it down a good path though & I imagine that there will be tons of great advice to gm's by the time this is close to print

 

[maceochaid]

People have, historically and recently, done horribly bigoted, terribly violent, extremely dangerous, or just plain stupid things because of their devotion. Many people are really devoted to their faith and because of that, have performed terrible acts of bigotry--and many believe that by performing those acts, they are keeping innocents safe. And many of these people have done so knowing that they are breaking laws or are at risk of being killed, and choose to continue to do so, seeing themselves as a martyr to the cause.

Strong devotion to a causes--almost any cause--is not in and of itself an inherently good thing, and the best way to reflect this is to change the list of things that grant inspiration to include "willing to perform terrible acts in the name of your beliefs (so long as it benefits your allies or moves the story forward, a la Chaos)."



Well, you don't have to turn into another creature if you don't want to.

OTOH, this is FantasyLand, and perhaps when one truly finds redemption they do turn into something else. Look at Beauty and the Beast (at least the Disney version; been a while since I read the real story), where the prince was cursed to be a beast but when he managed to redeem himself, he became a prince again.

Or you could simply rewrite your character sheet to reflect your new status. If you played a really evil guy--say, an Assassin rogue, a Conquest or Oathbreaker paladin, a vile Necromancer, or an evil fighter or barbarian--then perhaps you can switch or reroll your stats and be a Redemption paladin or a Life cleric or that Mercy monk that's going to be in Tasha's instead. You've truly sworn off that part of your life and can no longer access the powers you once had.

Heck, you could say that you were an angel, and because you killed a brother-angel, your superiors turned you into a mortal until you could prove yourself worthy of forgiveness.

It's not necessarily a perfect fit, but are there really d6 Motivations for Redemption? Let's see...

• Complete redemptive deeds commanded by the gods (a la Hercules)
• Pay a weregild--which might be rolled into the above, and likely isn't a major issue for most parties. The weregild would have to be extraordinary: you can't just bring back a bunch of gold; you have to bring back the giant diamond being hoarded by the evil dragon Xarthranum.
• Bring the dead people back to life or free them from whatever curse has befallen them--my character for an upcoming Icewind Dale game has feels guilty that they were unable to properly warn against a particular monster attack, and now their tribe is all either dead of turned into werewolves, and one of their goals is to find the survivors and remove the curse.

Can you think of a few more? ATM, I'm stuck.

(an earlier version of the post was poorly worded, and sounded as if I was saying the quoted poster was arguing for having detestable themes in her characters and campaigns. This was not my intent, and I have edited it to better explain my point. The quoted poster sounds like they have a very admirable design sense around values they and I share.)

Hmmm. I think we're talking past each other. I LIKED the Lawful and Chaotic alignment pieces, and was hoping that we could also let GOOD and EVIL characters get in on this. Your "design for the corner cases" makes me afraid that no Destiny could be written for Good characters by the "but what if I have a terrible player?" standard.

Yes the word "devotion" might not always be good, but we're not talking about Mirriam Webster's Devotion. The Devotion rule set in this document in no way presents mechanics for your hypothetical player with a bigoted story in my opinion.

When I read the specific mechanics and description of devotion, I don't read it as written for Hitler type characters. AND if someone is a DM who is ok with PC's who like to enact a fantasy of becoming an Elf Hitler, I think that person has a different problem then Devotion having bad mechanics. I am a gay man actively involved in anti-racist education, I agree with you about the nature of Devotion in culture, I just don't know if I really run the risk of characters who want to roll up a Dungeons and Dragons character with that goal in mind.

Certainly, as a DM I've written so many campaigns were NPC Paladins are misguided oppressors that my players complained I overused the trope. I just don't have many players who come to my table with this character concept that you describe. "DM my player is devoted to homophobia and will kill any queer NPCs because he falsely believes them to be pedophiles and I consider him Neutral Good, does that work for you?" is something I have never witnessed, and if this is a regular occurrence at someone’s game table, EGADS.

As for a Metamorphosis destiny as a fudged destiny for bad guy gone good, it is almost the opposite. For some character turning into a monster to represent their enlightenment, MIGHT work, but it won't ALWAYS work for a player's story. Not every player who has done a star turn role playing a former bounty hunter for the evil Lich king who joined the Gnome freedom fighters and won peace for the Mystic valley will enjoy the option you can turn into a Beholder*, or just not get a feature like everyone else.

(*yes I know you suggested I choose a monster that is less "monster" but do a search on DnD beyond for Humanoids CR 14-18, there isn't much. I spent so much time developing my Conquest Paladin to be a great fighter, to just suddenly use Laeral Silverhand's stat block for them doesn't do much for me)

Also if I look at the Inspiration feature it also seems like a poor match for bad guy gone good:

Unearthly Diplomacy. Your unearthly aspirations grant you insights into the minds of even utterly alien beings. As an action, you may spend your inspiration to form a connection with a nonhumanoid creature you can see that has a CR equal to or less than your level. You connect on an emotional level and communicate freely, even if you do not share a language or the creature would be normally unable to speak. You have no control over creatures you connect with in this way but you gain an advantage on checks made to influence them. The knowledge and awareness of many creatures is limited by their intellect or perceptions, but most creatures give you information about nearby locations and monsters, knowledge of whatever they perceived within the past day. This connection lasts for up to 1 hour or until you use an action to end it.

I don't like this for a Prince Zuko, Catra, Emma Frost, or Kylo Ren character. For a redeemed character to have insight into only non-humanoid would in no way communicate "this guy was evil but now he's good."

So I get the initial IDEA you propose, but actually reading through the mechanics, Metamorphosis is personally too much of a stretch for it to be useful of telling the story of a repentant character.

Personally, I LOVED the idea behind this whole playtest, and I think you underestimate the creativity of the author to not come up with a feature that could represent that. I think the author did a great job of coming up with ideas that connect to story beats.

 

[Faolyn]

Hmmm. I think we're talking past each other. I LIKED the Lawful and Chaotic alignment pieces, and was hoping that we could also let GOOD and EVIL characters get in on this. Your "design for the corner cases" makes me afraid that no Destiny could be written for Good characters by the "but what if I have a terrible player?" standard.

Yes the word "devotion" might not always be good, but we're not talking about Mirriam Webster's Devotion. The Devotion rule set in this document in no way presents mechanics to tell your evil story in my opinion.

When I read the specific mechanics and description of devotion, I don't read it as written for Hitler type characters. AND if you are a DM who is ok with PC's who like to enact a fantasy of becoming an Elf Hitler, I think you have a different problem then Devotion having bad mechanics. I am a gay man actively involved in anti-racist education, I agree with you about the nature of Devotion in culture, I just don't know if we run the risk of characters who want to roll up a Dungeons and Dragons character with that goal in mind.

Certainly, as a DM I've written so many campaigns were NPC Paladins are misguided oppressors that my players complained I overused the trope. I just don't have many players who come to my table with this character concept that you describe. "DM my player is devoted to homophobia and will kill any queer NPCs because he falsely believes them to be pedophiles and I consider him Neutral Good, does that work for you?" is something I have never witnessed, and if this is a regular occurrence at your game table, EGADS.

Wow. So, because I dislike the word Devotion and the connotations it has, I must be a homophobic nazi, or at least welcome homophobic nazis at my game.

I--I have no words. You say this knowing nothing about me or the games I run or play or the people I game with. No words, other than that you Godwinned way too early.

I am seriously and deeply insulted that you would automatically assume that either I or my characters or the players at my table are bigots, just because I dislike the way a term is defined in a playtest packet. Hell, even though I almost always play good-aligned characters and would never run in or play an all-evil campaign, I'm kind of insulted on behalf of all the players who enjoy playing evil characters, because you think they must be "terrible players."

 

[maceochaid]

I am so sorry this has gotten out of hand, to be clear that’s the opposite of what I assume. It was a poor choice to use an ironic “if you have players” statement, but I DON’T think you have nazi players. I don’t think ANYONE has players making characters like you describe, who would use the Devotion rule set for the ends you are afraid they will use them for. I have edited my earlier quote to make that more clear. I humbly apologize.

 

[maceochaid]

So let’s start over. Do you think it would be useful to have Good and Evil alignments get their own destinies like Chaotic and Lawful? (I can see both sides to that). If yes it seems to me like you are saying a Good aligned destiny should have a different name than Devotion given the history of that word. Personally I am not in any way vested in the “good” destiny being called Devotion, I just want an destiny for my characters that want to invest in the Good alignment. Do you want to suggest some? I’m open to hearing those!

 

[tetrasodium]

So let’s start over. Do you think it would be bad to have Good and Evil alignments get their own destinies? (I can see both sides to that).

No, absolute morality can rot in hell.