D&D 3E/3.5 Edition Experience - Did/Do you Play 3rd Edtion D&D? How Was/Is it?

How Did/Do You Feel About 3E/3.5E D&D?

  • I'm playing it right now; I'll have to let you know later.

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MuhVerisimilitude

Adventurer
So, you don’t like role playing ”social scenes” with your character, and see combat as a competition for who can do the most damage?

We have very different ideas of what D&D is about, it seems.
I think he's implying with "social scenes" that the class has nothing going for it outside of combat in general. I don't think he's talking about combat vs social interactions specifically, because D&D is about combat, exploration and talking to people.

I saw nothing in what he said that implied that he personally does not like the role playing component, only that it's quite likely that game play (as in the mechanical interaction between character and the world itself) is quite middling without ways to effectively interact with the world.
 

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Thomas Shey

Legend
I’ve literally never seen CharOp in real life.
Therefore, I don’t think it causes 3x to be inherently broken. I love this version of my favorite game. If, as seems apparent, you don’t, that’s fine.

I got angry at your post, so I think I need to take a “time out”. Let’s let this one go, OK?

Well enough.
 

Thomas Shey

Legend
It doesn't imply that it isn't real, simply that it has not been observed at his table (nor mine, nor the tables of many DM I know). Some things may exist and not be observable (and therefore, not matter at all.)

No, I think it really kind of does. That would be "other people's problem". "Internet problem" implies it only takes place on the Internet, i.e. that is an argumentative technique, not a real observed one.

By the same token, I am sure we should not assume that the existence of (unobserved by us) "inherent problems" means we have had "badwrongfun" for the last 23 or so years, shouldn't we? Because that would be very, very dismissive, implying our fun is not real.

Other people have discussed why that could be true and the statement still be true; all avoiding an inherent problem requires is people, in practice, not pressing on the areas where it occurs. That doesn't make the problem less inherent, it just says that it doesn't apply to the entire design space of the system. "Inherent" /= "unavoidable".
 

Voadam

Legend
As for the Monk, it's not designed for straight-up confrontations. It has better hit points, saves, and mobility than a Rogue, so it can potentially last longer if forced into a fight; but that's not his role. It is a good infiltrator and scout; it has a decent number of skill points; it can operate incognito (e.g. passing as a peasant) effectively even without weapons nor armor, and therefore act as a spy. This role isn't new; it was designed this way since the AD&D 1e days.
I have played a bunch of monks in 3e, they are a lot of fun flavor wise but have mechanical issues.

All classes in 3e and 4e and 5e are designed to be roughly balanced in combat, able to participate significantly and have a role in combats. It is one of the great design features of 3e over older class designs in my opinion.

Mechanically monks and rogues do not quite live up to that design goal in 3e.

Monks are supposed to be mobile martial artist combatants, not just OK if forced into a combat role. The 0e/1e class was based on Remo Williams the Destroyer, a kick-butt dominant combatant, although the class design was really hurt by being mechanically alt thieves and having low hp. In 2e they got kind of an upgrade when they showed up as alt clerics so better attacks and hp, which is pretty much the chassis from then on for later editions (attack bonus and hp comparable to a cleric in 2e, 3e, 4e, and 5e).

Monks are mobile with a fortitude save stunning blow and have good defensive saves. They are decent at getting to the back lines and punching out a glass cannon wizard with a weak fortitude save and low AC. They are also better than others at fighting if they have nothing to work with, such as in a slave/prison escape or at a fancy dinner party, or if awakened by a combat at night when nobody has armor.

They are not really holding their own in most straight up combats however.

3/4 BAB means their attacks are not competitive with the warriors and they do not have spells for buffs or alternative attacks like clerics, druids, and bards do. Also they normally attack unarmed so no magic weapon buffs that others get. So things with decent AC are a big problem, their flurry of blows often turns into a flurry of misses when they can pull off a full attack. This means their offense mechanically is fairly limited. Their big offensive threat is a lot of attacks against a low AC opponent when they can get off a full attack, a con save rider a few times a day, and sometimes getting to the right position at the cost of their multiple attacks. Fairly niche. Against normal opponents they miss a bunch and do not do a lot of damage and a lot of things have good fortitude saves.

Their unarmored but add in wisdom AC means they are about the rogue's level of AC at the lower levels, it takes a lot for them to get a decent AC for melee (usually when they can double up on stat enhancing items) which means they are a bit vulnerable in straight default attack combat. Then they have fewer hp than rangers and barbarians so they are squishier melee combatants. In 4e squishy mobile direct combatant could fit a striker role, but that requires higher offense capability than baseline for most classes which 3e monks do not have. They have good saves and evasion and fall protection and such, but in direct combat they are more vulnerable than most warrior classes.

I am a big fan of the Trailblazer phantom attack bonuses so their attacks are competitive, and the Pathfinder hybrid monk-fighter brawlers who get a full BAB.
 

Other people have discussed why that could be true and the statement still be true; all avoiding an inherent problem requires is people, in practice, not pressing on the areas where it occurs. That doesn't make the problem less inherent, it just says that it doesn't apply to the entire design space of the system. "Inherent" /= "unavoidable".
Call it "avoidable" then; the crux of the matter is that it doesn't matter to us; so why insist ad nauseam about it?
 

Thomas Shey

Legend
Call it "avoidable" then; the crux of the matter is that it doesn't matter to us; so why insist ad nauseam about it?

Because avoiding it requires actively avoiding fairly large pieces of the system. The fact that can be done doesn't say there aren't intrinsic problems that the majority of people won't run into. It doesn't even have to be deliberate.

People are going to enjoy what they enjoy, and 3e doesn't make it impossible to do this; but any attempt to claim its easy is going to require to explain why its as frequent problem for so many people, and became more and more so over time. Some of that can be written off to splatbook bloat (and the really haphazard design that seemed to go with it), but as noted there were problems even in the corebooks.
 


Because avoiding it requires actively avoiding fairly large pieces of the system. The fact that can be done doesn't say there aren't intrinsic problems that the majority of people won't run into. It doesn't even have to be deliberate.

People are going to enjoy what they enjoy, and 3e doesn't make it impossible to do this; but any attempt to claim its easy is going to require to explain why its as frequent problem for so many people, and became more and more so over time. Some of that can be written off to splatbook bloat (and the really haphazard design that seemed to go with it), but as noted there were problems even in the corebooks.
Do you have statistics to back statements like "majority of people"; "so many people"; "frequent problem"? I am a statistician, and I am always careful when interpreting statements like these, which in many cases really boil down to, to use a non-technical term, "earsay", or just artificially inflated, repeated facts which don't have the real prevalence it seems they have (simply because the observations are not statistically independent.)
 
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Voadam

Legend
"Frequent problem" for "so many people". That's inferring both a sample size, and the frequency of a phenomenon. Care to back it with actual statistics? I have a PhD in statistics, I am a statistician by trade, so I am more than happy to read any and all data you have. Because if I had not been on websites like this one, I would never have known that I was supposed to have "problems" with the game in the last 23 years with tens of players and fellow DMs in "Real Life". Stuff read on the internet doesn't really constitute a reliable sample, and a "fact" repeated ad nauseam doesn't "create information".
Frequent problem of many people reporting it. There are plenty of people reporting such issues.

I have been in games where players playing combatant rogues were frustrated at their combat ineffectiveness, I have been in games where differences in character power based on build was extremely noticeable and a negative, where out of combat effectiveness was highly dependent on specific build leading players to consciously back off from participation when they would have preferred to be involved, and the frustrations of high level combat with shifting knock on effects from buffs and debuffs. Or frustrations with the fiddlyness of a lot of mechanics and builds. I have chosen not to play certain options based on the inherent issues with those designs.

The complaints about 3e are not theoretical, you are discounting multiple actual people reporting first hand experience and insisting on your own first hand experience based on how you don't play with the same play goals or play style.

I believe you when you say the imbalances or fiddlyness or other design issues did not matter to you and your group and your play style since 3e came out, it has to me and to others.
 

Frequent problem of many people reporting it. There are plenty of people reporting such issues.

I have been in games where players playing combatant rogues were frustrated at their combat ineffectiveness, I have been in games where differences in character power based on build was extremely noticeable and a negative, where out of combat effectiveness was highly dependent on specific build leading players to consciously back off from participation when they would have preferred to be involved, and the frustrations of high level combat with shifting knock on effects from buffs and debuffs. Or frustrations with the fiddlyness of a lot of mechanics and builds. I have chosen not to play certain options based on the inherent issues with those designs.

The complaints about 3e are not theoretical, you are discounting multiple actual people reporting first hand experience and insisting on your own first hand experience based on how you don't play with the same play goals or play style.

I believe you when you say the imbalances or fiddlyness or other design issues did not matter to you and your group and your play style since 3e came out, it has to me and to others.
I am talking about actual numbers. If there are 100000 players, and 90000 don't have issues, but 10000 have, that's 10% of the population. The fact that 10% of the population is simply more vocal than the 90%, doesn't mean that they have more weight. So yes, I believe you had issues, but "you" need not be in the majority (or most frequent category) automatically simply because it seems so by internet exposure. If I had to judge by my non-internet exposure, I'd probably estimate the prevalence of issues in my circles at less than 10%. Which doesn't mean that's the actual prevalence, but at the same time, one should not infer based on internet posts that the prevalence has a "high frequency". We may actually be in a position to not know, at all. I'd be happy to consider both positions "anecdotal", but I suspect that's never going to happen.
 
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