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Can a warlord "heal" an unconscious character

HighTemplar

First Post
I'm a strict defender of realism I find it hard to fathom warlords healing people, even with the fact that HP loss do not stricly mean physical wounds. Hell I can barely stand it if a warlord in my game uses inspiring word to bring back a dying comrade to combat without saying something that's actually inspiring. But I get it... He's not really unconscious... he has dreams... He's actually hearing while being unconscious... it's fantasy... he was just knocked out.

Sorry you don't die from being knocked out but hey w/e.

Point is, once you start assuming those things, there's no going back. There will never be just the realist unconscious state for you, because no, when you're dying, you're actually still pretty well alive. Your heroes that needed these justifications to get up realistically are gonna need these "special but possible conditions" everytime from now on, just because someone might come by and shout them to go back to fight. Both views are short sighted when you think too hard about it.

In one of my groups, we call that "drinking more kool-aid". As in "Don't like the feel of 4e, eh? Well, drink a bit more o' the kool-aid, and you'll get it. Try the blue flavor!" :)

That's so cool it almost makes me wanna bring kool-aid to my next game, but then i'd owe you special rights...:)
That being said, they should sell kool-aid near all dice sections of your favorite rpg store ^^. (you know you always wind up there...)
 

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smdmcl

First Post
I'm a strict defender of realism I find it hard to fathom warlords healing people, even with the fact that HP loss do not stricly mean physical wounds. Hell I can barely stand it if a warlord in my game uses inspiring word to bring back a dying comrade to combat without saying something that's actually inspiring. But I get it... He's not really unconscious... he has dreams... He's actually hearing while being unconscious... it's fantasy... he was just knocked out.

I guess you're a defender of a different "realism" than I. I am finding it much more believeble that a commander can urge his troops to fight a little longer, to get up and push on, to shake off the cobwebs of that last blow than it was to have the 3rd edition ranger grab his CLW wand and use magic to bring a companion back into the fight.

The fact that 4th edition makes healing a finite resource is, so far, a much more believable mechanic for me. A character, no matter what class or level, has a limited amount of punishment that they can endure in a single day. Gone are the 3rd edition days where the only finite resources that existed were gold, when appropriately converted to the necessary CLW wand(s), and the spells of your parties divine and arcane classes.

I don't like everything about 4th edition but, in my opinion, it's better than the previous edition. I was fed up with 3rd edition 2 to 3 years ago and looking for a new system. I tried Hackmaster and liked it to a point. I had never heard of Castles and Crusades but it may have been a system I could have enjoyed. Maybe after ~5 years of 4th edition I'll tire of it as well and go looking for something new but I really doubt that the Warlord's ability to trigger healing surges in their allies will be the machanic to drive me from the game.

Shane
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
I'm a strict defender of realism
Then you're playing the wrong game. D&D has probably never climbed above 3 on the reality-o-meter. You might not have ever seen Aftermath, but GURPS is still out there. There are some very simulationist/realistic games out there for those who enjoy rolling three times to resolve every thrust/parry/riposte in a rapier duel, one 1-second combat round at a time, or determining which of your target's internal organs was just burst by your .50 AE reverse-ogive round...

I find it hard to fathom warlords healing people, even with the fact that HP loss do not stricly mean physical wounds.
Once you accept that damage doesn't represent physical wounds, 'healing' in the form of inspiration surely isn't much of a stretch. It's entirely likely that a character who isn't bloodied hasn't been touched by an enemy weapon (maybe his shield is battered or his cloak is torn or his head spinning from the axe blow his helmet kept from being fatal) - one that's bloodied might well just be /scratched/.

Point is, once you start assuming those things, there's no going back. There will never be just the realist unconscious state for you, because no, when you're dying, you're actually still pretty well alive. Your heroes that needed these justifications to get up realistically are gonna need these "special but possible conditions" everytime from now on, just because someone might come by and shout them to go back to fight.
4e has a much more narative aspect to it now. It seems obvious that powers don't just represent things that PC does in character, but circumstances that the player gets to invoke some of the time. (Otherwise, how are martial powers ever 'daily,' or 'encounter' for instance?) So, when a character is down and making death saves, all you really know is that he's down. If the warlord Inspiring Words him back into the fight, he wasn't that badly hurt. If his warlord ally is out of inspiring words, he is genuinely unconsious. If he fails his death saves, he was actually mortally wounded. You don't know how bad he was hurt until all that's been resolved.

Not realistic, but /really/ not simulationist - more dramatic or cinematic. Seriously, a sizeable minority of the warlord's powers are action movie cliches. ;)
 

HighTemplar

First Post
Tony Vargas said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by HighTemplar
I'm a strict defender of realism

Then you're playing the wrong game. D&D has probably never climbed above 3 on the reality-o-meter

Thats because you spend too much time on the rules and you never bothered to actually try to make it reach much higher.

Once you accept that damage doesn't represent physical wounds, 'healing' in the form of inspiration surely isn't much of a stretch.
I'm with you on that one. it makes a lot of sense. What dosent is the fact you're exhausted, your local warlord screams at you to go back fighting. You get physical and ruined once more, your local warlord screams at you not to lower your guard and to keep fighting, you keep it up, reassured. Then after getting violently massacred(mentally) you tire out but your friend pulls an incredible stunt making you wish you were him and actually motivating you to keep on fighting(again) then you ultimately finally get hit and crash down, then again, in your dreams your friend is still there telling you he's not given you the permission to give up, so you step on your feet and keep on rollin'. Now thats dull.
On the other hand I can perfectly see cleric healing you repeatedly and it's still gonna work tomorrow.

If his warlord ally is out of inspiring words, he is genuinely unconsious. If he fails his death saves, he was actually mortally wounded. You don't know how bad he was hurt until all that's been resolved.
Great... I though I left my quantum physics Ph.D at school. Oh right, I figured it's momentum so precisely it's actually a little bit of everywhere now.

Seriously, a sizeable minority of the warlord's powers are action movie cliches. ;)
truedat
 

WalterKovacs

First Post
I'm with you on that one. it makes a lot of sense. What dosent is the fact you're exhausted, your local warlord screams at you to go back fighting. You get physical and ruined once more, your local warlord screams at you not to lower your guard and to keep fighting, you keep it up, reassured. Then after getting violently massacred(mentally) you tire out but your friend pulls an incredible stunt making you wish you were him and actually motivating you to keep on fighting(again) then you ultimately finally get hit and crash down, then again, in your dreams your friend is still there telling you he's not given you the permission to give up, so you step on your feet and keep on rollin'. Now thats dull.

On the other hand I can perfectly see cleric healing you repeatedly and it's still gonna work tomorrow.

This is realistic in that, not knowing how magic works [since it doesn't exist] whatever we are told it does can be believed as realistic. However, knowing at least something of how non-magical things work, it seems unrealistic for people to just shrug off exhaustion. Although, there are instances where people do that, all that time. Doing it multiple times per day is something that really only happens in action movies/horror movies, etc.

Of course, heroic tier NPCs all have only a single surge. Only PCs have more surges, and that is because as fantasy heroes they are better than the rest [cue theme from Karate Kid]. So, they are a bit superhuman in their ability to withstand punishment. If they weren't, they PROBABLY wouldn't have went into the adventuring business in the first place, and went with a safer profession.

And, the healing surge ultimately limits you. The warlord can only push you so far before you can't go on without something extra. At that point, the paladin can infuse you with some of his own vitality, the cleric can use one of his divine powers, but ultimately, even with your health restored, you know you can't take much more punishment, and so you should rest soon.

Your healing surges are much more like the old fashioned HP. Very little can actually give you "free" healing surges, and I'm not sure many are non-magical [temp HPs has some non magical ones, but even then those aren't tricks you pull off with regularity].

It is a fantasy game. The characters are tougher and more resilient than in a realistic world ... is it really a deal breaker that they are tough enough to gut things out longer.

If it is really that harder, consider the healing surges and HP as a whole. Your current HP represents your "death from massive damage" threshold. If you don't tap into your healing surges, you can be killed, despite having HP [in the form of surges] to spare. You are limited by the ammount of HP you can gain in an encounter as nearly any power that gives you HP has a daily or encounter limit, and even with potions, you have a limited number of surges. So it's possible to be killed in a single encounter with surges remaining. It is also possible to be killed over the course of the day because you've run out of surges and you get killed during the "last" encounter. Based on previous encounters, you shouldn't have been killed by that much damage in a single encounter, but because of the "fatigue" from draining surges earlier, you didn't have as much left in the tank.

Great... I though I left my quantum physics Ph.D at school. Oh right, I figured it's momentum so precisely it's actually a little bit of everywhere now.

Not everything done out of game is known to the characters in game. Until someone dies, they don't know if they are dying, stabilized but unconcious, under some sort of effect [unconcious, knocked prone and stunned]. Now, they might guess something is wrong because, the warlord is likely constantly asking everyone how they are doing, keeping his eye on the battle, looking for openings and where he's needed, keeping up morale, and most importantly, knowing that people are alive. Sure, the warlock likes to tease the warlord by constantly annoucing he's "over here now" as he teleports around the battlefield, and the rogue sometimes doesn't answer, but he knows that's because the rogue is being quite to better pounce on his prey. However, when someone drops to the ground, the warlord knows that person may be down for the count, so he knows to throw out a few words of encouragement to try to talk him away from the light. If he got a good look at the guy, he might have went with a melee touch ranged power to fix him up, but he's in the middle of the fight, and the best thing for that guy is to get a few of these monsters into the ground so the group can take a breather, but for now, a few words will have to do. Maybe when he gets back up he'll think about taking a breather before going back in swinging.

Each time you roll the die for a death save you are determining whether the character is going to die or not. [actually, that's only the case when you are on the last death save]. So, the die ultimately decides whether or not the character dies [unless someone else intervenes]. The narrative universe these characters live in doesn't just follow cause and effect, but constantly has randomness determining the outcome. In this case, after collapsing the first time, he could be dead in 18 seconds, or he could spring back up in 6 seconds seeming invigorated [he's human, so there is a 10% chance of it happening] or he could lay there the rest of the fight and die at any moment [after 18 seconds]. The severity of the wound is really only determined by the outcome of the rolls, and thus can't be known before hand. OR, the death save rolls represent a metaphysical struggle, basically swimming against the tide of the River Styx, or trying to move away from the light and find the door back to the waking world. In the latter case, the warlord is the hand that reaches down into this limbo state between life and death and pulls you back into the here and now where your allies are in trouble and need your help. "You can die on your own time" he gruffly announces as you pull yourself up and go back to busting heads.
 

Tale

First Post
Arguing for realism in fantasy is so incredibly inane. Magic is okay, but fantasy heroism is not! It's totally not realistic! It's like an arbitrary line where mystical hoodoo gets a free pass while exceptional acts do not when the context of it all is supposed to be amazing and wonderful things.

It's like complaining about Captain America, then going to read X-men. Blissful ignorance of how genetics works is totally defendable, but somehow improper biochemistry is just outrageous simply because you took an introductory class in High School.
 
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Tony Vargas

Legend
Thats because you spend too much time on the rules and you never bothered to actually try to make it reach much higher.
A game's degree of realism is mostly predicated in the mechanics. As a DM, you can maintain some internal consistency or 'verismilitude' if you try, but if the mechanics aren't modelling reality, it's not going to be realistic. D&D hasn't much tried for realism, though 3.5 was a good deal more simulationist than 1e (which was just plain arbitrary) or 4e (which is more cinematic).


On the other hand I can perfectly see cleric healing you repeatedly and it's still gonna work tomorrow.
The Cleric and Warlord actually face the same limitation in healing surges. A warlord /can't/ just inspire/browbeat/whatever an ally into going for ever, eventually he exhorts you to fight on an you just haven't got anything left. The Cleric, too, faces that limitation, though he gets more non-surge healing and sooner (startling with Beacon of Hope), than the warlord (first non-surge healing at 6th - well, unless you count Inspiriing Presence... oh well).


Great... I though I left my quantum physics Ph.D at school.
Sure, the adventurer is both alive and dead. I'm sure one could calculate the half-life of dropped adventurers. ;) It's a true random-chance save, nothing to do with how health (CON) or experienced you are. That's not modelling the factors that determine if someone survives a potentially lethal wound IRL, it's modelling whether the character in a dramatic piece of fiction is 'really dead' or not.
 

Nail

First Post
Nod. I'm not surprised, 4e doesn't really change the concept of D&D hps, it just hangs more of it's mechanics on that concept than did prior editions - it's more internally consistent. If you didn't like or didn't get the concept of D&D hps before, you could ignore it, wrap it all up as 'magic' (since magic restored hps), and leave it at that.
This is a new & interesting way of thinking about it. As I read over this thread again, this post stands out. Thanks!
 

Kishin

First Post
Yet strangely, talking someone who is out of the fight back into the fight is such a movie cliche, even in sword+sorcery movies, that I figured that its inclusion is natural and makes sense given the heroic fantasy world they're trying to portray.

People do this all the time for cinema, yet as soon as you bring RPGs into the equation, its like everyone who's involved has their ability to suspend disbelief diminished by a factor of ten. Seriously, if you can watch a Die Hard movie and not get wildly upset about how John McClane shouldn't be able to do the things he does, I don't see how waking someone up with Inspiring Word or similar things in 4E are such a reach.

As for HP, well, people just internalized them as wounds, despite the fact that they've been an abstraction since 1E.

HighTemplar said:
Thats because you spend too much time on the rules and you never bothered to actually try to make it reach much higher.

Why would you try to increase the realism level of a game about mystical firebreathing lizards, elves and sorcerous devices? I don't try to make toast with my DVD player either.


Nail said:
In one of my groups, we call that "drinking more kool-aid". As in "Don't like the feel of 4e, eh? Well, drink a bit more o' the kool-aid, and you'll get it. Try the blue flavor!" :)

I don't know if it was your intent, but you come off incredibly insulting here.
 


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