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Can a warlord "heal" an unconscious character

Nifft

Penguin Herder
Well see, the problem is that this GETS IN THE WAY of narrative. When narrative starts reminding you of Cleese talking about dead parrots, theres something wrong...
1/ I'm so glad I don't play with people who sound like those in your example. I hope they don't resemble anyone real.

2/ The problem with non-simulationism is that you can't say at any given moment what the state of the simulation is. So you can't say that a loss of hit points represents any specific state in the simulation. This is the problem with your example. You're narrating a simulation.

Cheers, -- N
 

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Vegepygmy

First Post
DM: "Okay, the rest of you see the orc give a blood curdling victory cry as Bob falls to the floor unconcious and dying, bleeding heavily from the last blow."
Given that Bob has a 1 in 20 chance each round of getting back up all on his own, without any inspiring words from warlords, why would you choose to describe his condition as "unconscious and dying" in the first place?

For the record, I'm not a fan of 4E and its gamist orientation, but your issues with it smack of deliberate misinterpretation to me.
 

HighTemplar

First Post
The Cleric make you feel better because its obvious that he believes in Pelor.

The Warlord makes you feel better because its obvious that he believes in you.

And Pelor GRANTS HIM POWERS, or at least thats how it used to work. Now 4e dosen't say anything about what happens if you betray your own god, it dosen't even state if you lose any powers or not and does not even consider the possibility as 3e did.
PBH60 said:
Clerics are battle leaders who are invested with divine

power.

First line cleric class

PBH cleric class said:
As a cleric, your deity does not directly grant you
powers. Instead, your ordination or investiture as a cleric
grants you the ability to wield divine powers. Clerics
are usually formally ordained by existing clerics who
perform a special ritual to do so, but on rare occasions a
deity moves to directly ordain a worthy worshiper without
any sort of priestly hierarchy involved. What you do
with your powers once you are ordained is up to you,
although if you flagrantly and openly defy your deity’s
tenets, you quickly earn the enmity of the faithful.

PBH cleric class said:



...I wish I never read that. So this is how 4e solved the problem =x Meh, I guess I just proved my point wrong.
I'm not onna edit my own post just so you can follow the history of my demise !

Anyways, I guess this brings martial and divine keyword almost to par, but there's still something missing.

Believing in you is bull***t.

@ Hypersmurf: I don't think they'll be making martial zones anytime soon, and if they ever did, I don't think it would be suiteble for dispel magic to dismiss them. WotC are not THAT incoherent yet.(?!)

@Regicide: I get your point, and I love it. haha

 
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WalterKovacs

First Post
HP do not equal blood. "bleeding" in 4e is taking ongoing untyped damage. Unlike in 3e, you do not take a point of damage each turn you are dying [which was the risk of death for that game]. Instead you make "death saves". The idea of saving against death is not seen in the physical world outside of seeing whether or not you failed 3 [you die] or if you hit 20+ [you spend a surge]. Death saves are a random way of determining how long you "last" in your present condition, and a small chance of recovering without outside help.

When someone gets knocked down, while the PLAYERS and the DM know absolutely what condition that character is in, no one else knows exactly how bad things are except that the character is in bad shape and is AT RISK of death. Ultimately, everyone is dying until they are dead ... so it's someone who is NOT DEAD YET, and is waking from unconciousness [that never happens ... no one can black out for 6 seconds because of taking severe punishment, shake it off and get back into the fight again.]

Ultimately it ruins the narrative ... if you "write yourself into the corner". If anything that puts someone down without killing them should have killed them ... it's going to seem very odd that they aren't dead. That has nothing to do with 4e. If you describe the condition that makes the character dying in such a way that you cannot except that a warlord's cry could bring an unconcious character back into the fight ... I think it's pretty clear where the disconnect lies.

EDIT: In Regicide's specific example, the dying character is described his wound bleeding heavily. That is something extraneous that has nothing to do with dying/unconciousness. How is it unbelievable for someone to get back up after that but it ISN'T unbelievable that they take NO DAMAGE from the bleeding wound? Without an ongoing damage (save ends) effect, you don't really have life threatening bleeding. So, eliminating that from the equation, you have a condition where someone takes some severe damage and collapses as a result of it. It may seem like they've been severely beaten and bruised and rendered unconcious. However, they get back up ... STILL beaten and bruised, but they've regained conciousness.

Most HP damage is superficial at best ... because no matter HOW beaten up you are, you suffer no penalties for being bloodied [which is different from bleeding] outside of either being angry [as a Dragonborn, etc] or being a better target for the monsters [vs. Tiefling, etc]. However being at 1 HP is not much different from being at full HP. So, your wounds are CONSTANTLY closing themselves up, clotting, etc. Ongoing damage [specifically untyped damage] is used to specifically describe a bleeding wound. They also have conditions to describe other types of injuries [dazed, stunned, slowed, immobilized, weakened, penalties to attack, penalties to defense, etc] and all of those are similarly defined as temporary, either for a turn, or until save ends. In those cases you get more specific types of injury that cause mechanical problems other than getting someone closer to unconciousness and making death saves [being at risk of dying very soon].
 
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AndrewRogue

First Post
DM: "And the Orc lays a vicious swing for 12 points of damage on Bob."

Bob: "Oh man, I'm at -3 HP"

DM: "Okay, the rest of you see the orc give a blood curdling victory cry as its axe finally finds solid contact! The blow sends Bob's PC sprawling to the ground, and you're sure you see blood..."

Tim: "I shout some words of encourgement at Bob and give him a healing surge. 'Hey! Are you going to let some orc stop you after you've come this far? I guess if that's all you've got, though...' He scoffs, striking his own blow against a nearby orc. 'Then I suppose that means you're giving Amelia up to a far more capable man!'"

Bob: "All right! I'm back at 5 HP and it's my go. My PC shakes the cobwebs from his head, tightening the grip on his sword and he stands up, offering a passing 'Like hell I'd ever leave her to you!', his sword lashing defensively to keep the orc at bay. He's a bit dazed... and undoubtedly distraught to find that, while the axe left only a flesh wound, the weight of the blow absorbed by his armor, that the damage to his winesack would be irreperable.

-----

A little rough because, frankly, I'm lazy right now. But a far more accurate description, methinks.
 


Obryn

Hero
Well see, the problem is that this GETS IN THE WAY of narrative. When narrative starts reminding you of Cleese talking about dead parrots, theres something wrong...
Well, gosh - are you saying this is the only possible narrative of that sequence of die rolls and mechanical events?

Amazing!:-S

It's simple. You create the mechanics/narrative problem when you describe Bob as, basically, getting his skull cracked open and bleeding out.

A different choice of narrative, more in-line with the actual game mechanics, is more sensible. Your choice not to do so can't be interpreted as a problem with the system itself.

-O
 

HeinorNY

First Post
Frank: "Woo, your shout closed the wound and stopped him bleeding and dying, alright! Great narrative!"

Shouts can't close wounds and stop bleedings, but they can help the wounded to overcome the negative effects from the injures upon his ability to keep standing and fighting.
 

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