D&D 5E Brainstorm Sorcerer upgrades. (+)

[TwoSix]

We could move Sorcerers closer to having "spell like abilities".

Ie, a sorcerer doesn't learn spells and spend spell slots. A sorcerer learns spell like abilities, and each time they use them in a day they have a chance to not be able to do so again.

Second, to distinguish a sorcerer from a wizard, what if we added riders to each spell like ability. Like, when a sorcerer gains the fireball spell like ability it comes with a package of other abilities. This is somewhat similar to the "domain" idea, but maybe at a finer grain level.

An easy example would be that every time you learn a fire spell like ability, you get a +1 bonus to damage on fire spells (including cantrips).

To make it a bit less generic, imagine if the Sorcerer class had a set of Domains. Each Domain was associated with a set of spells. As you get more spells in a Domain, you get extra passive abilities.

Domain of Fire might grant an increasing amount of bonus damage with fire spells. If you have N spells, it roughly adds +1dN to your fire spell damage. It will also eventually grant fire resistance (and maybe immunity), plus maybe cold resistance.

If the sorcerer wants higher level domain abilities, the sorcerer is encouraged to pick more fire spells.

Possibly a given spell can belong to more than one domain. When you pick a spell like ability (aka spell), you pick which domain you are going to boost. This lets us come out with new Domains that overlap existing ones without automatic power creep.

Personally, I'd lean into this even harder. A sorcerer isn't a spellcaster at all; they're a magical being. As they level, they get more and stronger special abilities based around their magical theme. The sorcerer "class" has almost nothing, other than granting saves/skills/hit die/ASIs.

I could also get behind a sorcerer picking one, and only one, domain, sort of like the 3.5 PrC Divine Crusader. A "domain" has exactly one spell of each level, organized around a theme (Fire, Ice, Fear, Nature, etc.). The sorcerer casts these with sorcery points. The sorcerer subclass is what grants the theme of the character (draconic, fey, celestial, etc.), and generally gives the combat scaling, utility, and ribbon powers. The domain and subclass combined gives the overall concept, like a fire domain draconic sorcerer.

 

[Minigiant]

Are you suggesting that bold bit is the class spell list with "powers" being the bulk of the class's focus & power budget or are you suggesting the same matching full caster slot gains/progression choose six spells from almost much the entire wizard spell list plus get these for free? Having so much of spell list the class's spell list. Having so much of the wizard spell list & an identical slot progression/gain doesn't allow enough room in the power budget for the sorcerer to develop meaningful power from it's own stuff

I am suggesting that the Scion has a Scion list

When Scions prepare magic, they can prepare spells and monster powers freely.

Monster Powers and Spells both cost Willpower.

 

[tetrasodium]

I am suggesting that the Scion has a Scion list

When Scions prepare magic, they can prepare spells and monster powers freely.

Monster Powers and Spells both cost Willpower.

"a scion list", My question was what the boundaries of those 5 spells were but you didn't clarify if the five spells you listed were the whole list or if "a scion list"is additive to what is basically the wizard list like

Spoiler: this

 

[Minigiant]

"a scion list", My question was what the boundaries of those 5 spells were but you didn't clarify if the five spells you listed were the whole list or if "a scion list"is additive to what is basically the wizard list like

Spoiler: this

View attachment 358750

That was an example of spells known for an individual Scion


The Scion list list would be similar to the current Sorcerer spell list. Focus on damage, healing, and self buff.

 

[tetrasodium]

That was an example of spells known for an individual Scion


The Scion list list would be similar to the current Sorcerer spell list. Focus on damage, healing, and self buff.

See that's the problem with sorcerer & how it got to it's current state of "wizard but hot". There's always an effort to talk up what it should have & how coolThing X & Y needs to ring this & that bell but all of that falls under the "but hot" and doesn't fit as long as it's some kind of heresyto admit that it can't continue to be nintysomething percent of the wizard's spell list with a better attribute & extra toys. Giving sorcerer subclasses collections of spells to broaden the barely limited sorcerer list instead of focusing on uptuning their sorcerer specific stuff just exacerbates the problem & underscores how much of an insignificant edge case that their missing spells takes to manifest in play.

 

[Minigiant]

See that's the problem with sorcerer & how it got to it's current state of "wizard but hot". There's always an effort to talk up what it should have & how coolThing X & Y needs to ring this & that bell but all of that falls under the "but hot" and doesn't fit as long as it's some kind of heresyto admit that it can't continue to be nintysomething percent of the wizard's spell list with a better attribute & extra toys. Giving sorcerer subclasses collections of spells to broaden the barely limited sorcerer list instead of focusing on uptuning their sorcerer specific stuff just exacerbates the problem & underscores how much of an insignificant edge case that their missing spells takes to manifest in play.

The Scion gets monster powers by spending Willpower. That is not "but hot"

And when the Scion spent at least 5/10/15 Willpower, they transform. That's not "but hot"

And the Scion is CON based. That's not "but hot".

 

[CreamCloud0]

i think the sorcerer could gain alot from replicating the old psion, having a selection of at-will actions that you can bump up in power by burning spell slots, so say, your claw attack is one of these at-wills and gains more attacks and bigger damage die size by spending bigger slots for example, like upcasting a spell but it's an inherent action, i'd pair this with expanded spell lists for more tightly themed subclass based spellcasting.

 

[tetrasodium]

The Scion gets monster powers by spending Willpower. That is not "but hot"

And when the Scion spent at least 5/10/15 Willpower, they transform. That's not "but hot"

And the Scion is CON based. That's not "but hot".

Yea but how do you make room for "monster powers" of noteworthy impact when starting out with a chassis containing a spell list similar to the current Sorcerer spell list given that said list is basically all of the top shelf wizard spells? Even if it's meaningfully limited by the willpower expenditure it just rolls over into the same nova>nova>nova>"oh I'm totally spent guys, we need to take a rest" that the short rest classes impose unless the monster powers contribute more to the overall power budget for the class than a spell list similar to the current sorcerer list allows.

 

[Minigiant]

Yea but how do you make room for "monster powers" of noteworthy impact when starting out with a chassis containing a spell list similar to the current Sorcerer spell list given that said list is basically all of the top shelf wizard spells? Even if it's meaningfully limited by the willpower expenditure it just rolls over into the same nova>nova>nova>"oh I'm totally spent guys, we need to take a rest" that the short rest classes impose unless the monster powers contribute more to the overall power budget for the class than a spell list similar to the current sorcerer list allows.

Monster Powers offer elements not on the spell list.

 

[tetrasodium]

Monster Powers offer elements not on the spell list.

That is an obvious nail through the very idea that sorcerer is limited by only having most of the wizard spell list rather than all of it. It very much sounds like more of the same with extra steps.