D&D 5E Brainstorm Sorcerer upgrades. (+)

[Neonchameleon]

Sorcerers essentially need three things

• More spells known
• Good subclasses with meaningful and strongly thematic abilities
• If casting a limited list of spells that overlap with the wizard is what they do they need to be better with the same spells than the wizard to offset the wizard's greater breadth and ritual mastery

As of Tasha's the subclasses have started adding more spells known. And the (latest - Playtest 7) One D&D base sorcerer has more spells known. Check

The Xanathar's are good drafts of good subclasses but don't fix the underlying class and the Tasha's are actually good. And One D&D is carrying the good work forward. Check.

The PHB sorcerer has metamagic. Half-check because it isn't enough. The One D&D sorcerer also has an arcane surge ability you can use 2/day and that as a bonus action gives you +1 DC on saving throws and Advantage on spell attack rolls. Full check.

So what's needed to fix the sorcerer? Waiting for the revised PHB later this year - or using the playtest packet.

 

[jmartkdr2]

I really liked the Next playtest idea, but I would go in a particular direction: make sorcerer the dragon class.

You get dragon powers, dragon magic, dragon elements and dragon fear and scales and claws... maybe do something like the Next playtest where you get some points (not too many) and as you spend them you gain more physical changes, but I'd also want to set it up so that you could avoid those changes and stay a caster-type, or just trigger them early and play as a martial/gish. But any which way you're a dragon-magic-user.

This does mean that the other origins need to be placed in other classes or made into new classes, but I'm not as afraid of class bloat as I am of bloating individual classes b trying to make one fairly narrow set of mechanics do too many different things.

 

[jmartkdr2]

Ok, the other threads are full of off-topic and sorcerer hate. So, let's open a thread to brainstorm ideas for sorcerer. This thread is a (+) thread, so no calls for erasure or merger please, and no derailing with whataboutism.

Some venues of discussion I've gathered from the previous threads:

Some thoughts on these:

• What are the mechanics you'd think could improve the sorcerer flavor?

More origin-themed features. You could make a caster who likes dragons in any other class, a sorcerer should feel extra-dragony.

• Spell points, spell slots or "free form"?

Spel points doesn't play very well against spell slots, but it could be made to work.

• The third level subclass problem.(Aka, how important the source should be?)

Very. To the point of "maybe they shouldn't be a full caster by default."

• Does the class merit a split?

I'd say yes, by origin.

• Should it be the "turn into a monster" class?

Yes, but not one class for all monsters.

• Should the class remain Cha based, or should it be moved to Con?

I prefer charisma, but Con would be fun too.

• Can the spell list be made more different from the wizard?

Absoultely

• Do we need WotC to do it?

Need? No. Want? Kinda, yeah, since WotC stuff gets accepted at almost all tables but 3pp is hard to find; as a player it's very hard to get some dm's to accept other people's major overhauls.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I really liked the Next playtest idea, but I would go in a particular direction: make sorcerer the dragon class.

You get dragon powers, dragon magic, dragon elements and dragon fear and scales and claws... maybe do something like the Next playtest where you get some points (not too many) and as you spend them you gain more physical changes, but I'd also want to set it up so that you could avoid those changes and stay a caster-type, or just trigger them early and play as a martial/gish. But any which way you're a dragon-magic-user.

This does mean that the other origins need to be placed in other classes or made into new classes, but I'm not as afraid of class bloat as I am of bloating individual classes b trying to make one fairly narrow set of mechanics do too many different things.

Why? Why would you restrict dragon to one class? Rather than have a dragon sorcerer emphasising the magical side of dragons and a dragon-barbarian for their physical presence? And if you're splitting it between classes you can't then have a full class of it.

 

[BlackSeed_Vash]

I'd have Sorcerers learn a number of metamagics equal to their Proficiency modifier plus their Constitution modifier
I'd also love to steal from the Wizard in OneD&D packet 5.

[1] Memorize Spell - When you observe a spell being cast that is on the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list that is not your known spell list and it's base spell level is one you have spells slots for (a 2nd level Sorcerer cannot use this to memorize Fireball), you may use your Reaction to spend 1 Sorcery Points per spell level. You may use this feature on cantrips, spending zero Sorcery Points. Until you finish your next Long Rest, this spell is considered to be on your known spell list. You may have maximum of half your Proficiency modifier rounded down such spells known in this manner at a time. Once you have reached your maximum you may not use this feature again until you finish a Long Rest.

[2] Modify Spell - Would do two things. First I'd add Components, Concentration, Ritual, and Targets to the metamagic list (and add Necrotic damage to the Transmute metamagic). Second, allow a Sorcerer to add one additional metamagic to a spell cast for each level that spell was upcast.

[3] Create Spell - Give the Sorcerer an hour long ritual that allows them to add a spell to their known spell list that does not count towards their total and cannot be replaced by Sorcerous Versatility. This spell can be one they acquired by way of Memorize Spell and/or one designed with Modify Spell. Should upcast a spell to add additional metamagics, that is the spells base spell level. For example, using Distance and Target {enemies only} on Earth Tremor would make this spell 2nd level. When preforming the ritual, the Sorcerer casts the spell being created, thus expends the appropriate level spell slot and any Sorcery Points required.

 

[Lanefan]

So, let's open a thread to brainstorm ideas for sorcerer. This thread is a (+) thread [...]

On reading the thread title I thought you were proposing a new subclass called Brainstorm Sorcerer.....

 

[Chaosmancer]

Are there other spellcasters in the party? Do they all use spell points? Do the martial character players care about the sorcerer being even better than core spellcaster design, powerwise? (Edit: I am a forever DM, so I always have to consider power-parity between classes to make sure PCs don't clearly overshadow each other.)

There are no other casters. No one, not even the sorcerer, has felt or said they are better than a core spellcaster for using the spell point system. In fact, since I've combined the spell points and sorcerery points, they haven't really felt much different from any other caster I've seen in the game.

 

[overgeeked]

What are the mechanics you'd think could improve the sorcerer flavor?
Spell points, spell slots or "free form"?

I think either spell points, aka mana, or free form would work. But I doubt the community would ever accept free-form casting. Someone would come up with some ridiculous white room cheese and that would be that.

Should it be the "turn into a monster" class?

That could be cool. You already partially have that. It could be the monster harvesting and monster duplicating class. Eat a troll, gain some troll abilities. Eat a dragon, gain some dragon abilities.

Should the class remain Cha based, or should it be moved to Con?

It makes way more sense to not be CHA based. Not sure about CON based though. It makes the most sense of the physical stats though.

Do we need WotC to do it?

The answer to that is always no.

 

[Chaosmancer]

The PHB sorcerer has metamagic. Half-check because it isn't enough. The One D&D sorcerer also has an arcane surge ability you can use 2/day and that as a bonus action gives you +1 DC on saving throws and Advantage on spell attack rolls. Full check.

So what's needed to fix the sorcerer? Waiting for the revised PHB later this year - or using the playtest packet.

I think Arcane Surge is a step in the right direction for Sorcerers, but...

Look, I'm sure someone will throw down a bunch of math that says that actually being able to increase your DC by +1 for a few rounds of combat a day is actually incredibly powerful because that 5% increase in spell accuracy is busted if the correct spell lands. But, in practice... it is boring. It is like the oatmeal of class abilities. Because it doesn't feel like it does anything.

I've played plenty of casters and increased my spell save DC via items or level ups before and... it doesn't meaningfully change anything I do. Tactically, this will be used only in hard fights like boss fights, because it doesn't offer you anything new to do, just makes your numbers bigger. Thematically? It is moving in the correct direction, but they certainly need to do a lot more with it to make it pop

 

[Mephista]

Ok, the other threads are full of off-topic and sorcerer hate. So, let's open a thread to brainstorm ideas for sorcerer. This thread is a (+) thread, so no calls for erasure or merger please, and no derailing with whataboutism.

Some venues of discussion I've gathered from the previous threads:

• What are the mechanics you'd think could improve the sorcerer flavor?
• Spell points, spell slots or "free form"?
• The third level subclass problem.(Aka, how important the source should be?)
• Does the class merit a split?
• Should it be the "turn into a monster" class?
• Should the class remain Cha based, or should it be moved to Con?
• Can the spell list be made more different from the wizard?
• Do we need WotC to do it?

Of course, it would be better if we start going into specifics, not just broad statements.

In order, the answers are: See Below, Player Choice, The Cleric Answer, No, No, Not Con, See Below, Don't trust WotC
I actually wrote down what I wanted in the giant hate thread, but my preference is to KISS and make some minor houserules to improve the current sorcerer rather than rework it. Players tend to want to ignore giant walls of text.

Level 1 - Ditch the sorcerer spell list. Pick your casting stat (Int, Wis, Cha) and any other spell list from the following options - bard, druid, wizard, cleric. Allow power point system in place of spell slots.
Level 2 - Gain two new things:

-Spend a sorcery point to cast Detect Magic. While this is active, you may add your Charisma bonus to any Study action that targets a magical creature or effect. The idea behind this is simple - wizards, clerics, druids are REALLY good at Arcane, Religion and Nature checks, respectively. I wanted a similar "good at knowledge skill" for the sorcerer, and this is the best that I came up with.​

- New metamagic abilities, We technically have spells and abilities that let you act like a dragon, or a shadow creature, etc. But they run into concentration issues, or they're not scaling well, etc. New metamagics would help those spells work together to feel like a dragon or whatever. Right now, I only have Sorcerous Fist, based on the 13th Age ability of the same name, but others are bouncing around in the back of my head. I'm debating on one that flat out removes Concentration for self-only transmutation spells, but that feels a bit OP.​

Level 3 - Every subclass should take after the Aberrant Mind / Clockwork benefits.

Here's an example of dragonsoul subclass spells I made up. They're as close to dragon abilities I could get. As per Tasha's, they can be swapped out, but I'm going with "something thematic" instead of spell schools.
Cantrip - Primal Savagery (druid cantrip for claw attacks - subclass alters elemental damage of the claw attack, or defaults to Force)
Level 1 - Chromatic Orb, Absorb Elements
Level 2 - Dragon Breath, Alter Self
Level 3 - Fly, Fear
Level 4 - Polymorph (dragon forms enabled on self), Conjure Minor Elementals
Level 5 - Conjure Elementals, Summon Draconic Spirit.

EDIT - The Tasha's Cauldron magical items (different magical crystals) are enabled, though they're not planar-bound.