D&D General Baldur's Gate 3 Hates Religion (Spoilers)

[Steampunkette]

I think Ruin Explorer's critique is evidence that you did a good job of making Wild West American Fantasy, @Steampunkette, because Ruin is describing is a world primarily colored by American culture. The idea of people being chewed up and spit out, a huge focus on productivity and efficiency, truth and justice being two seperate things -- these things add a grim color that is necessary for a wild west setting to have.

Ruin Explorer is incredibly insightful, yeah. Recognized the setting for what it was off a simplistic title and a pantheon!

 

[Vaalingrade]

I mean... not to get all Camus on you, Vaalingrade, but if the question is about whether serving is better than not existing one has to ask if living is better than not existing.

And then it becomes a matter of degrees. 'Cause while there -are- religions that talk about serving in the afterlife in FR, most of them are in fact evil religions. With good religions just kind of trailing off with "You go to eternal reward". Not really much statement about "Serving" in the afterlife.

Then again, if you're gonna be super evil and thus try to be a Balor or Pit Fiend, why not be super good and try to be a Solar, instead?

In either case you're acting in your life to have a result in the afterlife. Doing great works of good to serve in a higher position in the heavens (or just chillax for eternity having a party) or doing horrible things to other people in the hopes of getting ranked up in hell.

Unless you're someone who is -actively- an evil person and enjoys doing terrible things you're probably looking at Lemure status in the hells.

And... really... is that any different from being a decent person in the heavens? Either you're serving the gods or you're serving the Devils. One of which is also a god so...

You really showed them by doing terrible things to innocent people for the chance to serve a different deity. Good job!

Truly is a damned if you do damned if you don't situation. Serve heaven, Serve hell, Cease existing.

Problem is, if anything you do helps the bad guys who set up and benefit from this system and being bad puts you on the side that's not only expected, but actively encouraged to betray their leaders, well...

But then, not existing is still the better option because at least you're not supporting the monsters extorting worship, the parasites of reality sucking at the collective nape of mortal-kind's neck.

 

[Shardstone]

This thread also confirms that I need to do away with the advice that gods shouldn't have stats and FR needs a good godslaying band of adventurers. Gods are basically politicians; shouldn't they serve us??

 

[Steampunkette]

Problem is, if anything you do helps the bad guys who set up and benefit from this system and being bad puts you on the side that's not only expected, but actively encouraged to betray their leaders, well...

But then, not existing is still the better option because at least you're not supporting the monsters extorting worship, the parasites of reality sucking at the collective nape of mortal-kind's neck.

I mean that's certainly -a- way of looking at it, yeah?

I can see where you're going with it, I just can't crane my neck far enough to see it as the right path ahead. Ceasing to exist helps no one, in the end. It's a meaningless gesture in the end which costs only you.

Now Shardstone on the other hand...

This thread also confirms that I need to do away with the advice that gods shouldn't have stats and FR needs a good godslaying band of adventurers. Gods are basically politicians; shouldn't they serve us??

This is why the "gods" in my settings tend to just be powerful entities rather than omniscient/omnipotent ephemeral entities you can't mess with. A really strong Water Elemental can be a god of a small community. A Balor is almost certainly revered and treated as a god for the same reason. Sheer power.

'Cause if someone disagrees with how gods should be in a setting, killing them should definitely be an option...

And killing the gods -is- an option in Faerun! Characters have been doing it for a long time. The Dead Three have that name 'cause they got -killed- by Mortals, after killing gods -as- mortals, themselves!

Heck. Kelemvor, Cyric, and Midnight all became gods during the Time of Troubles after using Godsbane to kill the Dead Three!

Less "Choose Oblivion" more "Kill the gods and make things better!"

 

[Vaalingrade]

I mean that's certainly -a- way of looking at it, yeah?

I can see where you're going with it, I just can't crane my neck far enough to see it as the right path ahead. Ceasing to exist helps no one, in the end. It's a meaningless gesture in the end which costs only you.

What's the alternative though?

How do you fix the abusive system, especially when godslaying isn't an option thanks to that coward Ao putting himself beyond reach?

If gods subsist on worship, the only way to deal with them as a whole is starvation.

 

[Steampunkette]

What's the alternative though?

How do you fix the abusive system, especially when godslaying isn't an option thanks to that coward Ao putting himself beyond reach?

If gods subsist on worship, the only way to deal with them as a whole is starvation.

Killing them.

Kill them all. Like the Klingons did for their gods.

Sure, Ao is out of your reach. For now. Get all the power of all the other gods into your hands and THEN kill him. Or use that power to divorce Faerun from his reality and go all Dark Sun Sphere on it where no gods or other entities can ever intervene again.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Killing them.

Kill them all. Like the Klingons did for their gods.

Sure, Ao is out of your reach. For now. Get all the power of all the other gods into your hands and THEN kill him. Or use that power to divorce Faerun from his reality and go all Dark Sun Sphere on it where no gods or other entities can ever intervene again.

Doesn't Ao hold the remote on all the god power though?

He's turned it off before, no reason to assume he's going to let someone go Kratos on FR. Unless the gods make him sad again, I guess.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

It occurs to me that reading this, that the gods may have little agency. If the planar location dictate alignment that is a restriction on the gods and celestial beings. There is some evidence of this, consider Zariel becoming lawful evil on conquering Avernus, or Graz'zt in the Abyss. Also the gods may be refective of the beliefs of their followers.
So attempting to effect change by accension to godhood is a trap. Once a god the only way to regain agency would be to lose one's worshipers and not to be bound to any outer planar location.

 

[Rystefn]

What's the alternative though?

How do you fix the abusive system, especially when godslaying isn't an option thanks to that coward Ao putting himself beyond reach?

If gods subsist on worship, the only way to deal with them as a whole is starvation.

Walk away. There are eleventy jillion ways to ditch the Realms and go somewhere less naughty word. Finding a portal to the City of Doors is going to be vastly easier and a Hell of a lot more likely to succeed than attempting to go godslaying. From there, you can go to literally anywhere. Or don't. You can stay there if you like it. No gods allowed. Just leave. Give all of them the big double middle finger and moonwalk out of their backwater plane.

 

[Steampunkette]

Doesn't Ao hold the remote on all the god power though?

He's turned it off before, no reason to assume he's going to let someone go Kratos on FR. Unless the gods make him sad again, I guess.

He didn't turn off godhood, he just kicked them all out of the heavens in Avatar form and had Helm guard the stairway to the heavens.

In avatar form they're more limited and can easily be killed by mortals... well I -say- "Easily" but... y'know. Comparatively.

But they were still gods and still had godly power mortals didn't have access to. It's why Mask was able to slay the Dead Three in Cyric's hands as Godslayer.

He was still Mask, he just polymorphed himself into intelligent sword form to do the fighty bits.

Walk away. There are eleventy jillion ways to ditch the Realms and go somewhere less naughty word. Finding a portal to the City of Doors is going to be vastly easier and a Hell of a lot more likely to succeed than attempting to go godslaying. From there, you can go to literally anywhere. Or don't. You can stay there if you like it. No gods allowed. Just leave. Give all of them the big double middle finger and moonwalk out of their backwater plane.

This is also an option.

Or, y'know... just go to heaven and mooch. The Seven Mounting Heavens of Celestia are one Plane Shift away!