Are people still mad about . . .

[PaulofCthulhu]

They're waiting for the iPad

Awesome. Sign me up. We've begun a process of removing/converting all Flash-based content from our site, just in preparation for this.

 

[billd91]

Was their marketing really like that? My (admittedly dim) memory is only of comments about what they were trying to fix with 4e. Which makes sense, given that they were performing a mechanical overhaul. Why should that anger you? Maybe the direct quotes you're thinking of would provide a better background.

I think RC is right. They were really just trying to be funny, hip, and informal in their marketing. The trouble is, as I see it, that's marketing designed to look non-professional and amateurish and it's not easy to pull it off well with out looking completely UNprofessional.

I just searched for "cloudwatching" and found the original post by Davd Noonan. I find no "dissing the fans of their past product."

I looked up the old thread on it and it's quite clear that Celebrim reacted strongly against it then. It doesn't look to me much like an obvious diss, but I think Celebrim's take on it indicates he found Noonan's blog post extremely patronizing. While not everyone may agree, I can totally see how it can be interpreted as patronizing.

 

[SteveC]

The only thing that keeps me mad is that I absolutely can't have a conversation with some folks about 4e (and to a lesser extent, gaming itself) with some folks without it turning into something extremely negative. It's even worse because a lot of these folks are the sort that I used to get along with and agree with quite well.

I'm quite willing to accept the notion that 4E isn't the be-all-end-all game, and there's still a lot to discuss about gaming that is edition proof, but it seems like sometimes you just can't do that without getting into a fight.

Aside from that, I'm far enough away from my 3X days that I don't really even think about it anymore.

--Steve

 

[Chrono22]

The misleading statements about the GSL, and the final result still bother me. It just seems so wrongheaded, having such a restrictive license. It hurts more than it helps.
And the PDFs thing also bothers me. It's a blatant attempt to force previous editions players into getting on 4e, by making the previous editions sourcebooks harder to acquire.

Basically WotC's marketing strategies have been disrespecting d&ds fanbase. Statistics might not show it, but gamers are one of the most perceptive and technically proficient buyers. Treat them like cattle and spurn their requests and you will suffer lost sales. That's not to say 4e was not a success. But how much more of a success could it have been?

 

[Raven Crowking]

I think RC is right.

I didn't read past this.








Seriously, though, I am sorry for my part in edition wars. While I really dislike 4e as a system, and some of WotC's business decisions over the last couple of years, I am happy that the game exists for those who like it.

RC

 

[Celebrim]

With all due respect, I think you took it more personally than intended. Also, I must have had a different play experience than you, because most of what they said sucked seemed to suck in my own games.

Obviously, we all had different gaming experiences.

I don't intend to argue with you about specifics. It would just end up in a flame war.

I will say that the phrase, "With all due respect..." and related phrases like, "I don't mean to be rude..." and "I don't want to say this..." are pet peeves of mine that do tend to get me really irritated. The reason is, whenever someone says, "With all due respect...", you can gaurantee that whatever they say next won't be with due respect. Personally, I see all such phrases as an attempt at self-deception, and believe that they actually make any statements that you make more insulting than if they were left off.

Your writing reads better and is less condescending and is less personal if it just begins with: "I think you took it more personally than intended."

And as for that charge, all I can say is, I didn't design 3e, so I wasn't taking it personally, but did very much see it as saying, "Third edition sucked and so we are going to make radical changes." The way I did respond to that was to realize that however good of a game 4e was going to be, it wasn't going to be a game for me. And, while I confess that its totally selfish of me to want WotC to make a game entirely for me and which caters to my exact taste, I also humbly protest that that is what customers normally want.

If I was designing the new edition and I said: "Why would anyone think that dealing with all the minute details of a monster required slavish devotion to rigid formulas was necessary to make custom monsters for your adventures?

I would have put the emphasis on that statement entirely differently than you did: "Why would anyone think that create a monster required slavish devotion to rigid formulaes, or that complete adherence to minute details you didn't particularly care about was essential and necessary?" For example, exactly why do you need to spend 10 minutes distributing skill points to a creature you never intend to make skill checks with? Why is it that we need explicit permission to ignore aspects of monster creation when we are in a rush? Why are you having a headache over whether the save DC of the effect should be 16 or 17? Why not just pick one that represents a suitable challenge to your PC's and go with it?

Would you view that paragraph as me being insulting to people who prefer the 3e way of doing things, or would you see it as expressing my excitement for what I genuinely feel is a better way to do things?

Neither. I would see it as missing the point. I would argue that there is nothing at all simple about the mechanics of most 4e monster entries, and that the process of 4e monster creation is no easier than 3e monster creation. All that really seems to have changed is your response to how exacting you have to be about the details. What's changed for me is have to go from a system that I'm fully comfortable working within, to gaining mastery of a completely new system. Half an hour trying to produce convert my ideas into even the most basic 4e monsters convinced me that was not insignificant effort.

I never needed permission to use the rules in whatever way I was comfortable with, so telling me that I could wasn't innovation from my perspective.

however don't think it was particularly malicious or in the spirit of trying to tear down the work of others, they were just having fun at the expense of something they didn't like.

There was it turns out quite a bit that they didn't like, that I did, and vica versa.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

I wouldn't say I'm mad, but I remain bewildered and exasperated that WotC stopped selling the PDFs of the TSR-era material.

Agreed.

3) Printing a 4e of a game which is utterly incompatible with the prior three editions of the game to the extent that is fundamentally a different game.

This was 4E's main appeal to me, though I could understand why this can make others upset. My purely selfish reasons is that I get a game more akin to Earthdawn that gets the support that only D&D can garner.

4) The ludicrous statements of some 4e defenders concerning what 4e would be like

One of my passionate responses to this day is related to this point. 4E haters would attribute things to the game that don't really exist. Usually through a combination of ignorance and their own tainted perceptions of what the game has become. I know this causes friction all around. Because 4E haters accuse 4E defenders of the same thing. In most cases though the 4E defender does have experience with 3E to state what problems they had with 3E. But then a 3E defender comes along to tell you that your problem didn't exist because they never encountered it.

5) The entirely pointless and contridictory new alignment non-system, and the other trashing of old fluff just for the sake of trashing it.

Yep. I'd rather they would have dropped it entirely or kept all 9. But it doesn't bother me much since it has no real effec on the game.

Partly. In retrospect, I feel that they were trying to be funny, and trying to point to 4e as an "evolution" rather than a revision, but it backfired.

Another thing that bugged me. I liked the humor behind it all. These are real people working on the game, not corporate robots. They never anticipated that too many gamers take their fun so seriously and would rage against the machine so fiercely. Or they did anticipate it and decided it would be fun to poke the bear.

The only thing that keeps me mad is that I absolutely can't have a conversation with some folks about 4e (and to a lesser extent, gaming itself) with some folks without it turning into something extremely negative. It's even worse because a lot of these folks are the sort that I used to get along with and agree with quite well.

I'm quite willing to accept the notion that 4E isn't the be-all-end-all game, and there's still a lot to discuss about gaming that is edition proof, but it seems like sometimes you just can't do that without getting into a fight.

Aside from that, I'm far enough away from my 3X days that I don't really even think about it anymore.

This.

I will say that the phrase, "With all due respect..." and related phrases like, "I don't mean to be rude..." and "I don't want to say this..." are pet peeves of mine that do tend to get me really irritated. The reason is, whenever someone says, "With all due respect...", you can gaurantee that whatever they say next won't be with due respect. Personally, I see all such phrases as an attempt at self-deception, and believe that they actually make any statements that you make more insulting than if they were left off.

I find it irritating (ironically) that people can't take others posts here with a grain of sugar. Yes, a grain of sugar. I'm sure 90% of us do not intend to be rude, but the media we communicate over makes it hard to convey tone. I try to think of us as buddies chatting around a table. But then someone takes something I said as if I just killed their dog.

 

[Mournblade94]

The only thing that keeps me mad is that I absolutely can't have a conversation with some folks about 4e (and to a lesser extent, gaming itself) with some folks without it turning into something extremely negative. It's even worse because a lot of these folks are the sort that I used to get along with and agree with quite well.

I'm quite willing to accept the notion that 4E isn't the be-all-end-all game, and there's still a lot to discuss about gaming that is edition proof, but it seems like sometimes you just can't do that without getting into a fight.

Aside from that, I'm far enough away from my 3X days that I don't really even think about it anymore.

--Steve

It extends farther than online. The release of 4e fractured the game community in real life. maybe it is just an anomaly, but there is a game group at my game store that completely split and have not spoken to each other in a year. A person that used to be my friend won't play in my Mutants and Masterminds game anymore because I won't run 4e. Mind you I am over it.

 

[El Mahdi]

I'm still mad as hell about Wo aljjt lakd tjek ... [post lost due to transmission error]

 

[nedjer]

It extends farther than online. The release of 4e fractured the game community in real life. maybe it is just an anomaly, but there is a game group at my game store that completely split and have not spoken to each other in a year.

wtf? and why are three year olds allowed to play RPGs anyway.