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Level Up (A5E) A5E LU vs. PF2e ++

I'm in the camp that both A5E and PF2e are both more sophisticated takes on d20 fantasy than O5e, both have merits, but are distinct enough that I'm glad both exist.

Maybe its too early for this, but wondering if anyone who is a fan of both A5e and PF2e and sees strengths in both could comment on what they feel like the best gaming styles and types of campaigns for each system would be? When would you use A5e and when would you use PF2e for your game?

This is plus thread. Cons of each system can be mentioned but no outright bashing or dismissal of either system please.
 

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Xaielao

Explorer
PF2e is my jam... my go to d20 fantasy game. But I have people in my 'circle of players' who aren't really fans of it because of it's increased complexity and over-all 'crunchiness'. But many of these people also want more depth & choice for their characters both in creation, when leveling up & combat. A5e is IMHO the best option available.

So while I'm more likely to run PF2e in the future, for those players who want to play something 5e based, I think they're gonna love Level Up.
 

VanguardHero

Adventurer
PF2 and D&D 4e are absolutely my Tactical Fantasy games of choice. I downright refuse to play o5e for reasons mechanical and moral. It sucks having to be like "Hey, play this super tactical game if you want me to be able to join in", it's unilateral and unfair. Level Up serves as a perfect middle ground for people who refuse/don't want to play 5e, and people who only want to/know how to play 5e. o5e is like a sandtrap, it lacks so many features of what a crunched based system, which it is, is expected to have. Getting people to move out of o5e is difficult because on top of the differences between systems that always comes with learning a new system, basic concepts like a functioning economy and character choices after 3rd level also have to be learned and it can be very overwhelming! Level Up lets people learn those concepts on an o5e skeleton that they're already familiar and comfortable with, serving as a bridge out of o5e.

Now, on a conceptual level, this was all I needed Level Up to be. But the system goes above and beyond and is something I'm legit excited to run once the Foundry system is out, since I never really get to play in person even before pandemic. In a full group of people who love intricate character building and crunch, PF2 is likely to be the best fit. Those groups are rare though, and Level Up serves as a much needed common ground that is damn fun in its own rights, and capitalizes on the wealth of 3rd Party Content WotC has so generously made. Much easier to run an Exandria or Eberron campaign in Level Up. Hell, I think Dark Sun in o5e would be terribly stripped down of what gives it identity, but with a little bit of Psionic content in a Gazette would make Level Up perfect for it. Enough Class variety, balance and versatility to let you actually disable Classes that don't fit well in DS, Divine and Arcane, and an Exploration system that adds weight to having to survive that could be a heavy focus. Some Psionic Heritage Gifts, a Subclass or two (The existing o5e ones are terrible), Psionic Combat Tradition or two (Ideally with a Soulknife), maybe the return of the Mystic in a more balanced state and Dark Sun is in an amazing state. Ok that got to be a bit wish fulfillment rambling, but hopefully it illustrates my point.
 

Xaielao

Explorer
Yea I've been wanting to run a Dark Sun campaign for ages, but after playing o5e's Tomb of Annihilation - by far the most 'survival based, hex crawl' o5e adventure, but with a Druid & Ranger, survival became a distant tertiary part of that game lol. I realized that if I was going to be able to run Dark Sun, it'd have to be in PF2e. However, A5e's nerf of food/water magic, amazing exploration pillar and Supply mechanic. it really is the perfect game to run a Dark Sun campaign in.
 

gorice

Hero
Yea I've been wanting to run a Dark Sun campaign for ages, but after playing o5e's Tomb of Annihilation - by far the most 'survival based, hex crawl' o5e adventure, but with a Druid & Ranger, survival became a distant tertiary part of that game lol. I realized that if I was going to be able to run Dark Sun, it'd have to be in PF2e. However, A5e's nerf of food/water magic, amazing exploration pillar and Supply mechanic. it really is the perfect game to run a Dark Sun campaign in.
Ooh, this is really interesting. I haven't read A5e yet, but I'd love something I can use to run Dark Sun.

Oddly enough, I reached the same conclusion about PF2 vs. 5e for Dark Sun. The keywords system in PF2 in particular makes adapting things much easier. Does A5e have anything like that?
 


Xaielao

Explorer
Ooh, this is really interesting. I haven't read A5e yet, but I'd love something I can use to run Dark Sun.

Oddly enough, I reached the same conclusion about PF2 vs. 5e for Dark Sun. The keywords system in PF2 in particular makes adapting things much easier. Does A5e have anything like that?
It doesn't really use keywords to the same extent as PF2e, but it's a better choice than o5e simply because of it's greatly expanded exploration tier. As I mentioned, it uses a trackable metric called Supply that is an amalgam of food & water, an expanded selection of activities a PC can perform while traveling (called Journey Activities). While Journeying a PC might cook a meal to get more out of meager resources, entertain the group to keep spirits high, look for supplies for a healer's kit or even material components for spellcasters. Track enemies or scout ahead to look out for trouble, even steal from passers by lol.

Each PC class has something called Knacks (or a similar mechanic) that are specifically abilities you can learn and use while exploring. For example Rangers have knacks that make them great foragers, give them the ability to produce minor healing potions called salves, construct long-term shelter that lasts potentially forever and protect from weather & even attacks in the night.

On top of this, there are encounter tables for each tier of play separated by terrain. These aren't necessarily random monster encounters either, they could be a traveling merchant who makes camp with the group, a natural garden filled with supplies, or other strange things. For specifically Dark Sun, there are tables for Blasted Lands (devastated landscape), Fiery Hellscape (volcanic mountains, etc), Haunted Lands (abandoned villages, undead-haunted settlements), Lofty Mountains, Open Roads, Parched Sands, or even Tangled Forest for the rare jungles that exist on Athas. There's a page on creating your own Regions.. so I'd probably add like Silt Sea & Salt Flats, Dust Sinks.. etc.

Long post I realize, but there's so much here that supports a great exploration tier. I haven't even gotten into things like travel scenery, creature signs (footprints, rubbed off bark suggesting a nearby bear.. etc), exploration challenges which are pages of non-combat encounters that test the PCs skills and are usually exploration/survival based.. such as inclement weather, collapsing structures, fields of battle, back alleys, fairy rings, forest fires.. pages and pages of them and they are all awesome.

My first a5e campaign isn't going to be Dark Sun... instead I plan on making use of the Zeitgeist setting due in a few months for campaign set on the high seas, involving a naval war the PCs become embroiled in; but without a doubt there hasn't been a d20 TTRPG this suited for Dark Sun since 3rd edition D&D.

FYI the kickstarter is expected to start accepting late backers in the next week. You might want to consider it. ;)
 
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I'm biased because I'm one of the designers, but for me the biggest strengths of Level up were that I could keep using my existing library and it kept the underlying math of 5e. Bounded Accuracy is such a nice thing.
Unbounded accuracy was probably 3.5's greatest flaw IMO
 

It's interesting that half of the answers are sort of non-play answers in that LU is easier to sell to current 5e players and you can use 5e adventures.

Then we have:
  • keeping bounded accuracy
  • better system for doing exploration, resource attrition journeys

I would say any sort of attrition play would be better in LU. PF2e is set up for "combat as sport" encounters with the party at full health and mostly full resources. There is no expected number of encounters per day and short rest / long rest ability balancing in PF2e.

For those that playtested, would you say LU kept the short / long rest dependancy, mitigated it, or made it worse?
 


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