Rules-Lite VS "Crunchy" TTRPG Systems

[Flexor the Mighty!]

This underscores an element of the discussion that I think is important: the difference between complexity in the core system of a game (say, Shadowrun) and complexity that emerges from lots of options (D&D 3.x is a good example here, I think).

Yeah, the core system of D20 wasn't very complex. It was the number of modifiers that were changing round by round. And depending on the group that could be a real PITA as people would lose track of what was what and how feat X applied to situation Y.

 

[Thomas Shey]

This underscores an element of the discussion that I think is important: the difference between complexity in the core system of a game (say, Shadowrun) and complexity that emerges from lots of options (D&D 3.x is a good example here, I think).

And it matters how mechanically distinct the options are. Effect based games tend to have a lot of options, but they're usually as atomic as is practical (i.e. they're built up from the same components); that seems very different than when every options is completely a one-off. And there are very much cases in the middle. Back in the RQ3 days it was relatively easy to keep Battle Magic spells in mind because they were straightforward, and kind of built to a common metric. Rune Magic spells were, on the other hand, frequently one-offs that didn't resemble each other in any consistent way; the only reason that wasn't a problem is you usually only had a limited variety of them, sometimes only 2-3.

 

[aramis erak]

I like rules light only for short runs, a handful of sessions or less.
They don't scratch my "game" itch for long. A few exceptions: Kobolds Ate My Baby, Ninja Burger 1e, But, despite being lite, they're also exceedingly crunchy - the rules are used a lot, and the edition of KAMB I started weith was very much bordering on a boardgame. I'm less happy with KAMB Super Deluxe Edition...

 

[scruffygrognard]

Barbarians of Lemuria is a good, rules-lite game. Everywhen is a generic, multi-genre take on BoL.

 

[Jd Smith1]

Rules lite doesn't interest me, because I run long campaigns, and a rules light system constrains options, and hinders PC growth. I prefer systems like Zweihander, Aces & Eights, and Hackmaster (5th, not to be confused with D&D). I am still looking for a good modern system.

 

[jdrakeh]

Rules lite doesn't interest me, because I run long campaigns, and a rules light system constrains options, and hinders PC growth. I prefer systems like Zweihander, Aces & Eights, and Hackmaster (5th, not to be confused with D&D). I am still looking for a good modern system.

I think it's worth noting that rules light systems constrain detailed mechanical character options and mechanical PC growth. They certainly don't constrain options and PC growth outright. Classic Traveller is a good example of a fairly rules light system that supports both character options and PC growth, though not by way of detailed mechanical subsystems. People have (and continue to) play extremely long-lived Classic Traveller campaigns despite the lack of such things being baked into the system.

 

[Jd Smith1]

I think it's worth noting that rules light systems constrain detailed mechanical character options and mechanical PC growth. They certainly don't constrain options and PC growth outright. Classic Traveller is a good example of a fairly rules light system that supports both character options and PC growth, though not by way of detailed mechanical subsystems. People have (and continue to) play extremely long-lived Classic Traveller campaigns despite the lack of such things being baked into the system.

I like mechanical character options, and see them as the prop base for good PC development.

I have no love for Traveller's system, although it's setting includes some useful supplements.

 

[jdrakeh]

I like mechanical character options, and see them as the prop base for good PC development.

And that's fair. I just wanted to make sure that a lack of mechanics for such things wasn't being suggested as a lack of support for long-term play, because it's not.

 

[Jd Smith1]

And that's fair. I just wanted to make sure that a lack of mechanics for such things wasn't being suggested as a lack of support for long-term play, because it's not.

It is for my group. YRMV.

 

[Micah Sweet]

This is one of my particular pet peeves when it comes to criticizing any game regardless of genre or whether I even like it. Games like Bladerunner, Vampire the Masquerade, Dungeons & Dragons, Alien, and many others are simply not designed to be generic science fiction, horror, or fantasy games. The fact that D&D doesn't a good system to use for a Wheel of Time fantasy game isn't a knock against D&D because that's not what it was designed for. I get it. You might want a more generic game with vampries in it than Vampire offers, but that's not the game designer's fault. For a game like Bladerunner, I don't actually need rules for burning attack ships off the shoulder of Orion nor do I need to them for glittering C-Beams because that's not what we'll be focused on while playing the game.

Of course, that argument works best for games in which it can clearly be discerned, ideally via designer notes, what it was designed for. Some games and game designers are wonderfully clear on this, while others choose to be vague.