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Would these two feats mix well?

I was just posting them to help Deset Gled with his analysis.

Celebrim said:
More seriously, this doesn't address the OP's original question since my rewrite was obviously intended to achieve a certain result which may or may not have been the intention of the two original feats.

It would seem that analyzing these feats would be rather fruitless. If we're just going to make stuff up, I could just as easily write versions of the feats that would obviously not combine well.

The bigger point is that we need actual information to answer the question. The OP asked if two such feats would stack. Without actual text, we can only discuss whether or not they should stack.

Clearly, Insight Archery is directed to an Int-based archery build.

I tend to disagree. Insight Archery would probably be used more for a character that already had high Int and low Dex, and wanted to round out their combat abilities. Remember that feats like Rapid Shot and Improved Precise have high Dex as a prereq, and this feat will not help that.

I have never seen someone take Zen Archery in an attempt to built the world's best archer. There might be some uber-build that abuses it, but I've never come across anything like that in actual play. I have, however, seen Zen Archery taken by clerics who wanted the ability to aid in combat without always using spells. Likewise, I can't see anyone using Insight Archery in a bow-based build, but I can easily see a warrior build based on Str and Int (for the Combat Expertise chain) who dumped Dex take this feat to round out his repertoire with some ranged abilities.
 

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kitcik

Adventurer
Insight Archery would probably be used more for a character that already had high Int and low Dex, and wanted to round out their combat abilities.

I have, however, seen Zen Archery taken by clerics who wanted the ability to aid in combat without always using spells.

Likewise, I can't see anyone using Insight Archery in a bow-based build, but I can easily see a warrior build based on Str and Int (for the Combat Expertise chain) who dumped Dex take this feat to round out his repertoire with some ranged abilities.

I would think that any of these builds / uses of a feat would be extremely suboptimal, but rather than argue that I will simply say: If Insight Archery and Zen Archery are used in this way, surely they are not broken. So I am agreeing with you on the main point.

I guess I should add that I do believe they should / would stack, although I would ban Easy Peasy Archery in any case.
 


Celebrim

Legend
Celebrim, you asserted that Insight Archery was broken because it encouraged Dex-dumping.

No, I asserted that things that encourage multiple stat dependency are less broken than things that encourage single stat dependency. I asserted that on that principle, I probably wouldn't allow 'Insight Archery' into my game written as it is.

MY thesis is that the points you made about AC and Initiative are precisely what balances the feat.

My statement, "Dumping dex is particularly hard because its already a God Stat influencing to hit, AC, reflex saves, initiative, and many skills.", was an admission that of all the stats, Dexterity probably had the most pervasive effect, and so if any ability swapping was to occur it would probably be best from dexterity to something else (as opposed to the other way around). For example, you would more easily get away with 'missile attacks depend on intelligence rather than dexterity' than you would 'skill points depend on dexterity rather than intelligence'.

It is not a refutation of my point to bring up evidence that could be used against it. It just shows that I've considered the implications of what I'm saying.

Even though the swap from Dexterity to Intelligence is one of the more inoffensive in core because Dexterity is so heavily loaded and Intelligence relatively impoverished, and even though the particular swap of 'missile weapon 'to hit'' is one of the more inoffensive in core because in core no melee class depends strongly on intelligence, I still don't prefer this version.

I think the worry I have here ought to be obvious in context. I'm not worried about how the feat works in the context of some limited set of things I happened to have in mind or on hand, but in terms of what else might be in existance that I haven't thought of or which is yet to be created. That is, I'm worried about as yet unspecified interactions.

This mindset comes to me by way of WotC's other big game - Magic the Gathering (CCG). You learn to look out for mechanics that are inherently broken - cost reducers, action buyers, potential recursion, etc. - which, while they might not be breakable with the set of cards currently in existance, might become breakable in the context of some future hypothetical card interaction. Ability swappers that create single stat dependency are one of things I look out for in D&D as low hanging fruit. Partly this is a desire not to break the game. Partly this is also a desire to encourage multistat dependency because I feel mechanically one dimensional characters tend to be one dimensional in other ways as well, although that is admittedly an aesthetic bias on my part.

I'm hardly an expert in 3.5 charop, since 3.5 charop is one of the things I hate about 3.5, but my suspicion is that this is more likely to end up in the tool bag of a class like Factotum or Exemplar than anything in core. My concern here would be that there is a class out there with an ability like, "Add your Int bonus to the attack roll", that then stacks the Insightful Archery feat on top of that to gain twice it's Int bonus to ranged attack rolls, and then finds something like the Easy Peezy Archery bonus on top of that to gain three times its Int bonus to the attack rolls and suddenly you have something that at 5th level has like a +29 bonus to hit to bows despite having a Dex 8. And then heaven help you if someone out there decided to create a 'Power Attack' type feat for arrows, or there turns out to be prestige class out there that lets you add Int to you ranged attack bonus a third or fourth time. And suddenly you have a character build out there that has made Intelligence into even more of god stat than Dex already is, because two or three different authors all separately came to the conclusion that swapping intelligence for something dexterity did was ok because dexterity already had so much going for it.

UPDATE: Ok, I'm not an expert on 3.5 charop, but it's usually pretty easy to find someone that is. Here is the product of a little googling: The Factotum Handbook. Notice how many of the ideas in the thread consist of "Use factotum's abiltiy to add Int to some roll, together with this feat that lets you add your Int bonus to some roll, together with this PrC that let's you add your Int bonus to some roll, together with this magic item that let's you add your Int bonus to some roll..." These are the dangers of ability swapping and mechanical variation for its own sake. I'm sure there is a Factotum + Many Shot build out there somewhere that breaks even harder with this feat in play.
 
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Aramalian

Explorer
All of which can be simply solved by the DM saying, "Nope - INT doesn't stack with INT. Try again, optimizer!"

I do see your concern, and I share your disdain for optimization, but I hardly see it as 3.5-specific. I had the same problem when I Storytold 2nd Edition World of Darkness games, and as I hop around on different boards, I read people complaining about optimizers in every game.

That's why the word "No" is the most powerful weapon in the DM's arsenal. If the players don't trust the DM enough to accept that, then they probably shouldn't be running with that DM.

Which, of course, leads right back to your original point, that you would probably say "No" to Insight Archery :) And your point is well-argued, even if (I think) the nonstackability of same-source bonuses protects you from the situations you envision. Well done!
 

kitcik

Adventurer
Deep Imaskari Ranger (32 point buy, no min)
Insight Archery Feat
S: 3
D: 1 (3-2)
C: 3
I: 22 (20+2)
W: 3
Ch: 3

Player: Why do you keep saying I cannot draw my bow?

DM: Maybe 22 Intelligence isn't as smart as you thought.

Player: Insight Archery works with all missile weapons. I pull out a
throwing dagger from my belt.

DM: OK, but you do 1d4 - 4 damage.

Player: I pull out a flask of oil from my backpack.

DM (houseruling, I admit): Please make a DC2 Dex check to make sure you don't drop it when you pull it out of your backpack in combat.

Player: DC2? You mean I have a 30% chance of dropping it with my -5? Uh oh... Can I make an Intelligence check? What do I think my best option is?

DM: Run. But you better drop that flask of oil first anyway - you're encumbered.
 

airwalkrr

Adventurer
As for feat B, I haven't seen a precedent for anything like it, but I would have to say if a feat allowed you to double your Dexterity modifier on ranged attacks, I would only allow it to work for Dexterity. I tend to lean more on the side of technical definitions for this sort of thing. I would advise the player that the two wouldn't allow use of double Int and that therefore the player should choose feats accordingly.
 

Viktyr Gehrig

First Post
I'm opposed to class features that allow characters to pile all of their abilities on a single ability score, but Intelligence and Charisma are so impoverished that I have little problem with allowing non-spellcasters to use them for non-standard abilities.

I allow unarmored Fighters and Rogues to add their Intelligence modifier to their unarmored AC and their melee damage with finesse weapons. I allow Orcs to add their Charisma modifier to their melee damage whenever they have a morale bonus. (I'm thinking of applying this to Barbarians in general.) Generally, I'm looking for ways to make Intelligence better for non-Wizards and Charisma better for non-Sorcerers.

The problem with spellcasters is that they are naturally single ability dependent. This needs to be fixed.
 

Aramalian

Explorer
The problem with spellcasters is that they are naturally single ability dependent. This needs to be fixed.

I agree with everything you wrote that I didn't quote, but then you had to go and slip this one in! :erm:

For the reasons Celebrim stated yesterday (AC, Init, ranged touch, and skills), I disagree that casters (esp. arcane ones who can't just throw on a suit of Mithral Full Plate) are SAD. Arcane casters need DEX.

I've also considered houseruling that spells with somatic components are affected by low DEX. (This is the point where someone should smack me over the head with where a rule like that is actually published!)
 

Argyle King

Legend
Imagine:

Feat A says "when making a ranged attack, you use your Int modifer instead of Dex"
Feat B says "when making a ranged attack you use double your Dex modifier"

A player in your game has chosen both feats for her character. Do you think they stack? I.E. the net result is the character uses double their Int. modifier on ranged attacks?

Discuss!


(Note: I have no idea if these are real feats, it's just a hypothetical situation to see how people think these kinds of rules interact with each other).


It would seem to me that you'd double your Dex mod, but then you'd replace that end result with whatever your Int mod is.
 

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