Unearthed Arcana WotC Surveys: Implementation vs. Interest

[DEFCON 1]

Couldn't this argumentation be used as a reason why warlocks, sorcerers, and bards are not necessary when wizards already have most of their spells? And FYI in at least 3e and 4e it was called their "power list."

Of course! And that's why all four fall into the "arcane" power source. Because they all have a larger amount of overlap. Those 3 could quite easily be made Wizard subclasses with applicable backgrounds. I'm won't argue that they shouldn't be classes though, because its already too late-- they are classes, so nothing any of us can say can change that.

There is overlap between primal and arcane, particularly with things like elemental magic. There is overlap between divine and primal sources, particularly with things like healing and restorative magic.

Yes, there is overlap. And indeed, the three sources share several of the same spells. But if we were to mention off the tops of our heads the first five spells we think of that would be for the Cleric, Druid, and Wizard... I don't think any of them would be the same. We could probably go to 10 defining spells for those three classes and almost if not all would be different.

I don't think the same could be said for the Psion. Mention the first 10 "spells" a Psion would have as defining abilities and almost every single one is something the Wizard already does.

I think that we could say - much as Pathfinder 2 does with its "Occult" power source - that overlap can exist between divine (and ki) and arcane sources that are suitable for psionic magic: mental magic, divination, telekinesis, monk-like mysticism, psycho-metabolism, mind over body, astral dimension and constructs, etc.

If there was just merely some overlap, I'd agree with you. But the question is actually where is there NO overlap between the Psion and the Wizard? Is there any defining ability the Psion can hang its hat on that the Wizard doesn't also do? THAT'S the issue I think. If we can't come up with a single thing (let alone five or more) that Psions would do that the other power sources don't do... then that's a pretty good indication that a Psion would only be a different thing in name only.

shrug That seems less like a real issue and more like the flimsy excuse that people are making to keep the psion from consideration as a class. It doesn't really hold up much weight under scrutiny really. The sorcerer and warlock both have smaller spell lists than the wizard and do similar things.

In many ways this is true, but again... the Warlock and the Sorcerer are both arcane classes and thus some overlap with the Wizard can be expected, plus they already ARE classes, so no amount of complaining can get them removed. The same cannot be said of the Psion.

So if the Warlock and Sorcerer's abilities overlap with the Wizard, does that then mean the Psion should also be an arcane class too since they almost entirely overlap? What would the reaction be if the Psion was made an arcane class (since it overlaps so much?) I suspect people would freak. They SAY there is a marked difference between the Wizard and the Psion... that one is magic and one isn't... but what truly is the difference other than a couple fluff ribbon abilities? No spellbook, no components. What else IS there that makes the Psion truly separate and different from any of the arcane classes? I honestly can't think of any. And if we can't get that list of at least 5 things that the Psion does that no other classes can... asking if its truly necessary is not out of line.

 

[Maxperson]

I hate psion in my D&D. So I will occasionally try to shoot them down.

Even if they make a psion class, they aren't in YOUR D&D unless you want them to be. So what's the problem with letting others have their fun, too?

 

[generic]

snip
And if we can't get that list of at least 5 things that the Psion does that no other classes can... asking if its truly necessary is not out of line.

Why five? What are the five things that a Sorcerer can do that a Wizard cannot?

I'm just asking because I don't really see the difference.

Furthermore, when have classes ever needed to be "necessary"? Really, all we need are the core four.

 

[Maxperson]

Personally I've never seen a need for psionicists. What is psionics anyway other than a different source of magic? What does it add the game?

As @Celebrim stated: for those who want a psion, why? What would be different other than perhaps using a variation of mana or spell points?

Because based on other threads, there's not even any agreement on what it should be. Maybe it's only popular because people fill in their ideas of what the psion would be if they developed it?

Conceptually, psionics is using your own power to do things. No other class does that. Clerics and druids rely on the divine power of nature and/or the gods. Wizards, bards and sorcerers rely on the weave to access, they just do it differently. Warlocks rely on their patrons for their power.

In 2e, and this sounds far more absurd than it was in play, I had a 1st level character become a god in my friend's father's game. It was a one-off adventure and whoever did the best in that game was going to be able to play the PC in my friend's game. I used psion as a way to demonstrate that a piece of divine power came with me and he was able to do supernatural things purely by using his own power. I could play that concept in 5e as it currently stands.

 

[Maxperson]

Or Obewan waving his fingers and saying "these are not the droids you're looking for". Which sounds a lot like verbal and somatic components to me.

First, he didn't need to wave his hand. Luke didn't when he tried to use it against Jabba. Second, that wasn't a somatic component. The non-somatic ability had already worked and he had to actually voice the suggestion ability that he used in order to complete it, just like you do with the suggestion spell.

 

[Maxperson]

LOL. Nobody is "keeping the psion from consideration as a class". The devs tried a few options, none was popular enough to make it into a publication yet. That may or may not change.

There is no anti-psion illuminati.

Um. We've seen one here and others support him. He votes against it for no other reason than he dislikes it and wants to keep it out of the game. That's clearly someone attempting to, "Keep the psion from consideration as a class."

 

[Umbran]

Um. We've seen one here and others support him. He votes against it for no other reason than he dislikes it and wants to keep it out of the game. That's clearly someone attempting to, "Keep the psion from consideration as a class."

Mod Note:

One person is not a conspiracy. Please don't conflate the two.

I see folks being dismissive. I see folks getting rude after beign dismissed. Get this - both of you are in the wrong. And, since no matter how many times I give warnings, people still keep up with Psion-warring, in a thread that's not even ostensibly about psionics! This thread is done.

Please, folks, go have a good meal with family or friends, if you can. Maybe after that, you can remember that the people here are real people, and how they feel matters, so that you can treat each other better.