D&D General Words which replaced "race" in fantasy games

Marandahir

Crown-Forester (he/him)
What do you believe should happen when the subjective experience of one marginalized group conflicts with the subject experience of another marginalized group?
Charlaquin answered this with a more eloquent question than I would have.

I think usually there's a third option that isn't being considered – the old equality/equity/justice parable about the ball game and the box to see over the picket fence etc.

You'd need to do something if you want to help both groups feel included, and thus sell the game too both groups. For example: I have friends who refuse to play 5e let alone 4e Essentials because they dialed back away from the elegant balance of 2008 4e's AEDU power system for all characters, and they feel the game now is rigged back in favour of quadratic wizards and linear fighters. I don't agree with them, even though I vastly preferred 4e over 3.5e, as I prefer 5e over both systems, but our subjective experience with these systems have led me to buy 5e books and them not to. Their gameplay style doesn't feel included by the system.

That's okay – not all systems are going to be inclusive of every gameplay style. But they have a system that's relatively well-built to play with, and both Pathfinder 2E and 13th Age are relatively successful systems that build off of the gameplay style of 4E. But now if they were told "your way of playing is wrong and you are wrong to like it" and were bullied out of playing any successful, well-stocked RPG, or if 5e D&D was the ONLY RPG allowed to be published bc WotC aggressively pursued a copyright against anyone making an T&T RPG? That would be a problem.

This may be a problem for WotC if they want to include my friends, and maybe if enough players were like my friends, 6E would be a more dial-based system where you could make it more like 4e or more like 3.5e or more like 5E etc. Or maybe WotC by publishing updated OGLs and SRDs, will start supporting multiple editions at the same time more effectively to hopefully win my friends back as customers.

But my friends' preferences are not the same as say, a black kid opening the PHB and seeing only white characters in art of the book and thus feeling like the game doesn't belong to them. 5e has by and large strived to be big tent when it comes to people and their identities and to not reduce us down or cater to just one group of people when playing. But that's not perfect either, and some folks feel like they're losing THEIR game as it becomes more inclusive. Dark Sun and Ravenloft are great example of the complications here – both feature pretty culturally problematic ideas due to their lineage in pulp fiction works that had used those tropes. But you remove too much of them and it doesn't feel like the setting anymore. 5E D&D found a way to make Ravenloft work more or less while trying to clean it up of anti-Romani stereotypes, but even the 4E take on Dark Sun engaged in discussions taht 5E's makers want to stay far away from. So I'm not sure how we get a return to Dark Sun that stays true to what makes the setting itself while also being inclusive.

It's not perfect. It's not easy stuff, and the creators of the game are also only human and are bound to make mistakes, too.
 

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Raiztt

Adventurer
What is known is that there is no objective test for inclusivity. If you operate off what is known then please admit this.

You gave an objective example for something, it just wasn’t for inclusivity.
Inclusivity is how many types of things are allowed into a set. Done and dusted.
 


Marandahir

Crown-Forester (he/him)
Inclusivity is how many types of things are allowed into a set. Done and dusted.
Yes, but the HOW is the rub here: the mechanism for allowing people within a set is subjective.

They may objectively be in the set or out of the set. But getting into the set can be blocked by making them feel like they can't be in the set, because enough people in the set are going to make mean faces at them for coming into the set and not staying in their own set.



The rules of inclusivity at enworld are of-course, subjective to the understanding of the mods and Morrus. That doesn't mean we are free to just ignore the rules. When I talk of subjectivity, I'm also talking about the social contract, which is only as objective as the wording can be made out to be to allow everyone to understand what it means.
 


Raiztt

Adventurer
Yes, but the HOW is the rub here: the mechanism for allowing people within a set is subjective.
Not concerned with the how. Just the definition of the word. Basically, any issue of practicality or "on the ground" scenarios I am completely uninterested in. I literally have no opinion on that.
 


Raiztt

Adventurer
This is a schröedinger's box issue.

We can't determine who is in the set or who is not in the set without understanding the unofficial boundaries to entry into the set. And once you observe it, you're influencing it.
Knowing who is allowed into a set, and knowing who is actually in the set are not the same thing. Like I said earlier, only interested in the first question.
 


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