D&D 5E Wizards Do Suck;)

[Zardnaar]

The problem with the sorcerer was that it was weak because it knew too few spells. The problem with the wizard isn't a lack of power; it's that they are boring. When I advocate for a wizard becoming a subclass of sorcerer it's because I think that's precisely how interesting the entire class is.

The thing about versatility is that there are diminishing returns . The sorcerer, with two spells known per spell level plus one, with the needs of combat doesn't have much left over - but a lot depends on how many casters are there to share the utility load. But yes Twin Spell needed a nerf.

I would ask tge DM how they treat wild magic in 2014. Or play fire sorcerer I suppose.

Tashas power creep is impressive. On paper tge Aberrent
mind is better powergamer clockwork soul.

 

[ECMO3]

Yes even then they get more interesting multiclass choices and oddball choices.

2014 a wizard still takes to long to ramp up mostly their level 10 ability. Eg it's great on Enchanters.

Never seen a level 10 enchanter. Been seeing sorcerers being rolled up a lot more even back then. Only reason I saw wizards full stop was "that guy" who always plays wizards.

Even then they were competing with bards and warlocks. I was an early adopter of the lore bard is actually great and the warlock is better early on. Basic tonelock/fiendpact is way more fun than say invoker.

Also was an earl adopter of proficiency in con saves is great hence why I rated transmute a lot higher than general internet.

We noticed a lot of 5E power stuff very early on eg hypnotic pattern, bless, spiritual guardians, lore bards, Paladins, Sorlock and general multickass options between the charisma classes or the warlock dip, sorcerer dip etc.

You're over rating versatility. A single twinned xyz is often better than the wizards spell list.

I've played a lot of Wizards and a lot of Sorcerers. Wizards in general bring more to the table in the class and a lot more in subclasses IMO. Not true for all subclasses, but most of them - Enchantment, Bladesinger, Abjuration, War Magic, Diviner all get great 2nd level and for the most part very good 6th level abilities. I would put these against any Sorcerer subclass abilities.

A single twinned XYZ is often better as an action, but sorcery points are limited and by the time that comes online Wizards have their 2nd level ability, which is usually pretty significant - for example, the ability to twin a spell a few times a day pales in comparison to the ability to incapacitate an enemy with no resource cost and no follow on save after the first, or the ability to auto land a spell. Further the Wizard gets more spells per day because of Arcane recovery and if you are using metamagic more than a couple times a day, then you are burning slots with felxible casting. Then add to this the best sorcerer subclass abilities also use sorcery points.

TBH, if you like metamagic, a high-intelligence variant human Wizard with metamagic adept and Arcane recovery and a 2 level Sorcerer dip to get flexible casting can have just about as many SPs as a sorcerer of the same level. You are giving up a spell level which matters at certain levels, but you are getting more cantrips a better spell selection and generally better subclass abilities. You can put spells like Absorb Elements and Shield on your Sorc list and still have great offensive options as a Wizard.

Later on once wizards get rolling sure they're better but I'm not convinced they're more fun or worth picking over say a light cleric, lore bard, tomelock, Sorlock or even a straight sorcerer.

If you are talking about single class characters, I think Wizards are more fun to play than any of the other casters.

If you are talking multiclasses it is wide open and I certainly have not played them all, nor even a large enough sample to say what is and isn't bad. But here is my experience:

Mixes of only casters
I have had a lot of fun with a Shadow Sorc-Undead Chainlock and a Shadow Sorc-Undying Chainlock, Bladesinger with Undead Warlock dip or Bladesinger with Death Cleric dip, multiclass Enchantment Wizard/Order Cleric and Tempest Cleric with a Fathomless dip.

I have not had a lot of fun to date with any of the Bard-Sorcerer multiclasses or Bard-Warlock Multiclasses I have tried.

Casters and half-casters or martials
There are a bunch of fun half-caster/caster or caster/martial multiclasses that are fun too. Bladesinger-Monk, Bladesinger-Arcane Trickster, Fey Wanderer Ranger-Whispers Bard have all been fun for me.

One I did not find appealing though is anything with a Paladin. The only Paladin I ever really enjoyed playing was a single class Kender Oath of conquest.

You also need to know about rituals to really make the wizard shine. That's not obvious to New players and I've never really seen a wizard player caring about rituals that much.

In games I play Comprehend Languages and Detect Magic are used as rituals all the time. If there is not a Wizard in the party it is usually a Cleric or Bard wasting a spell preparation/spell known on those. If other classes had Find Familiar they would get it, as it is the most powerful 1st level ritual (and arguably the most powerful 1st level spell) in the game. Identify and Unseen servant are also common rituals.

Unseen Servant, cast as a ritual and accompanying your party, is extremely powerful in combat action economy at 1st and 2nd level. I don't see it often, but often enough to mention and this is at a very low level. Your 1st level Wizard can be walking into combat with essentially 3 actions (1 from a familiar, 1 his own and an interact with an object he uses a bonus for from his unseen servant). This is less powerful at higher levels, but at level 1 this is awesome as his action is doing damage near what a fighter is doing and then he is getting to do two more things every turn (at least until his familiar dies).

 

[homunculus23]

Spells in the wizard's spell book can still be cast as rituals.

Socerors can also cast rituals. It takes 10 mins, and rest of the party wants to move on.

Wizards have:

1. The biggest and best spell list.

Ok, but they cannot have all those spells at once. They are limited to the number of spells they memorize. Right? Or are you one that doesn't play wizards right - oh if you have it in your book. DM does not ask what you memorized today

1. The joint most spells prepared of any base class

The "joint most"?

1. More spells prepared than a sorcerer even knows - and that's not even counting the other spells in the wizard's book

The other spells in the book would immaterial, as it takes a long rest to rememorize

1. The ability to cast spells they haven't prepared

No - they need to prepare spells. Even a ritual must be prepared to be cast as a ritual.

It honestly seems like you've never played a wizard. How is your information so wrong?

This is simply not true. The wizard has a class ability (including ASIs) at every even level and gets an extra level of spells at every odd level. The PHB sorcerer doesn't get anything at 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, and 15 - and like the wizard only gets ASIs at 4, 8, 12, and 16.

No, they don't. Look below:

No class ability at 3rd, nothing at 5th, nothing at 7th.

Here is a Soceror:

3rd level they both get access to level 2 spells, and the Soceror get metamagic. The wizard gets nothing.


At this point, it is obvuse that you're not looking at the wizard class, and just ranting and don't know the game.
Material componets are not used, but if they have a cost it cannot be replaced with a componet pouch.
And if the martial characters, after they got their "expensive armor" and greatsword they stared with want to hord, they are being the real a$$hats.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Ok, but they cannot have all those spells at once. They are limited to the number of spells they memorize. Right? Or are you one that doesn't play wizards right - oh if you have it in your book. DM does not ask what you memorized today

That is literally what the new Wizard class feature changes. It lets them rapid swap memorized spells.

Like I said: 'all' they got was shoring up their one weakness.

 

[M_Natas]

You are what you do. In order to become a wizard you more or less need to have devoted yourself to book learning of magic. You can't play a wizard without a spellbook; class has IME the single strongest influence on character because it's what you've decided to do while background is who you were born.

And this is part of the problem with wizard. It's flavour but not terribly interesting flavour.

Hrm?
What are you all doing with your Wizards?
I play since 2018 and so far I have played 4 Wizards. 3 in campaigns and one in a One-shot.

They all played different, felt different and worked different.

My first Wizard was Tas'Ha, a female human evoker, who was an already experienced adventurer, in lost mines of phandelver. She left home, because she didn't want to get married off by her parents and instead wanted a life of adventure. I brought her in to replace my life cleric who was very ineffective (and the healing aspect was moot, because we also had a Bard, a ranger and a Druid...). She was a bad ass adventurer, helping out this group of Inexperienced adventurers, blasting away thanks to the sculpt spell feature.

My next Wizard for a Mini Campaign was Mel'C'ia - she was a 16 year old, living in the slums. She found a spell book on a corpse and started teaching herself wizardry from that (because for that reason I rolled randomly, which spells she had, which lead me to have barley any damaging spells and non of the good damaging spells). Her single mother was trying to keep the family aflot, but her mother got sick and now Mel'C'ia had to keep the family alive and take care of her many siblings. As an illusion Wizards she did street performances with her magic while her brothers and sister pickpocket the distracted viewers.
In the campaign she used her limited randomly selected spell selection (which included the better illusion spells) quit well (thanks to the DM). The campaign/adventure was to find the kidnapped daughter of a high official of the city, which she and the other adventurers where hired to do, which they succeeded in.
During the adventure and at the end, she got her mother healed, an apprenticeship with a real Wizard, a good job for her mother (as the housekeeper of the real wizard) including a good home for her siblings. So far she is one of my most favourite characters I ever played and her ending in that campaign is the most wholesome and fulfilling for any of my characters.

For a OneShot (Lvl.8) I had a Bladesinger 5 / Barbarian 3 Multiclass - she was an experienced adventurerer (like a brawly version of Indian Jones) who spread the word of Lrak Xram, a philosoph who propagates a classless society and revolution against the elites.
I actually just wanted to get high AC with unarmoured defense and the Bladesong, taken together with rage. and of course: Muscle Wizard!
Because of the combination she had some Melee abilities and versatility in dungeon delving. I think with that combo I just reinvented a frankensteined form of a ranger class. She was fun for the OneShot. But I think Level 8 was the sweet spot. Because of the not very synergised classes, on lower levels she would be ineffective and on higher levels fallen behind the power curve.

Right now I'm playing an order of the scribe Wizard. The most typical Wizard. Her Name is Ari, she is a student of Strixhaven (as her background). She actually just wanted to study, be a book worm, do theory crafting and never leave the Univeristy with its beautiful libraries, but Strixhaven University "forces" all of their students to do an internship in the real world.
So she half-heartedly send out some application letter, hoping that nobody would take her. Because she didn't take good care with the applications, she send one of her applications to a Thieves Guild "the Foxes" instead of the the Wizard Albrecht "The Fox" Firethrower. And the Thieves Guild accepted her application (the only ones who did).
She tried to talk to Strixhaven administration to get out of that internship, but her supervisor decided it would do her good to do that internship. She just has to apply her magic while working for them.
That's how the ongoing campaign started for Ari.
So she started her Internship, learned the trades of thieving and thanks to her magic is quite an effective thief, too. It also helps that the gold she makes can help her pay for all the spell scrolls she wants. The DM even allowed me to create my own spell (level 1 spell to create familiars out of paper, 1hp, keep away from water and fire).
That campaign is ongoing and scared poor Ari already a little. Right now she is helping to overthrow the Government of the City State they are in.
Also because it is quite a dense city, she can't really use a lot of fireball, because wooden burnable houses are everywhere. But as an order of scribe she can throw psychballs or iceballs.
For the next levels I will get her the skilled feat so she can get expertise in deception and bump her charisma to 12. Combined with alter self and a cloak of many fashions, she will be quite an effective thief and infiltrator.

So far all my Wizards have played completely differently.

And I promise, I play other classes, too, like a celestial Warlock who pretends to be Bard because she was embarressed that her patron was a unicorn and not a cool demon or devil ...

What I miss for my Wizards so far in the games I played:

Official rules for creating your own spells. The UA was a step in the right direction. But they should be a class feature of the wizard, not a spell.

Official detailed rules for crafting magic items. I know there are barebone ones in Xanathars, but they lack any detail that would make them applicable in the game.

I never felt, that my Wizards were boring, lacked options or were outshone by other casters.
I felt that way with my Life Cleric, because all the other casters in that group had healing, too, and in a fight it doesn't really matter if you get 1 or 6 HP back to get up from unconscious and outside of fights you have hit dice.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Socerors can also cast rituals. It takes 10 mins, and rest of the party wants to move on.


Ok, but they cannot have all those spells at once. They are limited to the number of spells they memorize. Right? Or are you one that doesn't play wizards right - oh if you have it in your book. DM does not ask what you memorized today

And apparently the point I'm making has flown over your head. So let's look at the ritual casting rules for wizards (quoted from D&D Beyond).

Ritual Casting​

You can cast a wizard spell as a ritual if that spell has the ritual tag and you have the spell in your spellbook. You don't need to have the spell prepared.​

Emphasis mine. If you actually played wizards (you have admitted you don't because you're a perma-DM) you would know that wizards can cast rituals out of their spell book. So they aren't limited by the number of spells they can memorise in the ritual space.

The "joint most"?

Wizards can prepare a number of spells equal to Int+level. Clerics can prepare a number of spells equal to Wis+Level. Sorcerers meanwhile know (and therefore don't get to change) a number of spells equal to 1+level. Sorcerers are short changed

The other spells in the book would immaterial, as it takes a long rest to rememorize

No - they need to prepare spells. Even a ritual must be prepared to be cast as a ritual.

Please actually learn the rules for a wizard before commenting. I've already quoted the rule with a source.

It honestly seems like you've never played a wizard. How is your information so wrong?

My information was right. Yours is wrong and you openly admitted to not having played a wizard. To avoid embarrassing yourself this way in future when having a rules argument with someone check the rules before posting again. Everyone makes mistakes. But it's especially embarrassing to make the same mistake twice in one post, then accuse the other person of never having played a wizard and ask how their information is so wrong.

No, they don't. Look below:View attachment 294945
No class ability at 3rd, nothing at 5th, nothing at 7th.

Here is a Soceror:
View attachment 294946
3rd level they both get access to level 2 spells, and the Soceror get metamagic. The wizard gets nothing.

If you're going to make a claim stick to it. We can all check back on the thread. Your claim I was replying to was "They are the only class that does not gain a class ability at every level." You didn't say that wizards have more dead levels than anyone else. You said they were the only ones. As your own evidence shows the sorcerer has plenty of dead levels. Now please stop gaslighting.

At this point, it is obvuse that you're not looking at the wizard class, and just ranting and don't know the game.

I'm the one who actually knows the game as I've demonstrated. Every time we've had a disagreement about the rules you've been wrong. Which means by your own standards you aren't looking at the wizard class, and just ranting and don't know the game. And when you have a disagreement with someone double check to make sure you are right. You embarrass yourself less that way.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Hrm?
What are you all doing with your Wizards?
I play since 2018 and so far I have played 4 Wizards. 3 in campaigns and one in a One-shot.

They all played different, felt different and worked different.

And you can say the same about any two barbarians.

My first Wizard was Tas'Ha, a female human evoker, who was an already experienced adventurer, in lost mines of phandelver. She left home, because she didn't want to get married off by her parents and instead wanted a life of adventure. I brought her in to replace my life cleric who was very ineffective (and the healing aspect was moot, because we also had a Bard, a ranger and a Druid...). She was a bad ass adventurer, helping out this group of Inexperienced adventurers, blasting away thanks to the sculpt spell feature.

My next Wizard for a Mini Campaign was Mel'C'ia - she was a 16 year old, living in the slums. She found a spell book on a corpse and started teaching herself wizardry from that (because for that reason I rolled randomly, which spells she had, which lead me to have barley any damaging spells and non of the good damaging spells).

And I've played two Celestial Pact warlocks (the only subclass I've doubled down on) who were about this difference. No spells in common, no invocations in common (yes, one of them didn't have Eldritch Blast). And they couldn't have swapped over with getting each others' spell books. "The breadth of a subclass" doesn't mean no breadth at all.

In the campaign she used her limited randomly selected spell selection (which included the better illusion spells) quit well (thanks to the DM). The campaign/adventure was to find the kidnapped daughter of a high official of the city, which she and the other adventurers where hired to do, which they succeeded in.
During the adventure and at the end, she got her mother healed, an apprenticeship with a real Wizard, a good job for her mother (as the housekeeper of the real wizard) including a good home for her siblings. So far she is one of my most favourite characters I ever played and her ending in that campaign is the most wholesome and fulfilling for any of my characters.

For a OneShot (Lvl.8) I had a Bladesinger 5 / Barbarian 3 Multiclass

So the way you made this one work differently was ... by spending almost half your levels on ... not being a wizard.

Right now I'm playing an order of the scribe Wizard. The most typical Wizard. Her Name is Ari, she is a student of Strixhaven (as her background). She actually just wanted to study, be a book worm, do theory crafting and never leave the Univeristy with its beautiful libraries, but Strixhaven University "forces" all of their students to do an internship in the real world.
So she half-heartedly send out some application letter, hoping that nobody would take her. Because she didn't take good care with the applications, she send one of her applications to a Thieves Guild "the Foxes" instead of the the Wizard Albrecht "The Fox" Firethrower. And the Thieves Guild accepted her application (the only ones who did).

Again, this feels like same subclass, different background.

I never felt, that my Wizards were boring, lacked options or were outshone by other casters.
I felt that way with my Life Cleric, because all the other casters in that group had healing, too, and in a fight it doesn't really matter if you get 1 or 6 HP back to get up from unconscious and outside of fights you have hit dice.

The problem with the Life cleric is that they excel at one thing. It's an important thing but you can have too much of it - and you don't like what it does. But if we take Life Cleric as a class you can have a seasoned adventurer (your first one), a street rat (your second), a multiclass, and an academic quasi-thief. They will be less different from each other because they can always prepare each others' spells; the wizard is a good subclass because it's got picked spells rather than the entire list. But all the personality and background parts you've mentioned apply to any class.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I would ask tge DM how they treat wild magic in 2014. Or play fire sorcerer I suppose.

I really really dislike the wild sorcerer. It slows too much down. I don't mind magic with random effects, but don't like that way of doing it; it's time consuming and generally tedious rather than interesting for me. So how do I treat it? You don't get many rolls. Unless you're 100% invested in the archetype play a dragon.

Tashas power creep is impressive. On paper tge Aberrent
mind is better powergamer clockwork soul.

That's because, according to most assessments the sorcerer started way behind the wizard. They needed the extra spells known - and that's where the bulk of the creep is for both subclasses. (The only thing from Tasha's I ban is the Twilight Cleric).

 

[M_Natas]

And you can say the same about any two barbarians.

I played a pure Barbarian once. I didn't really like it. The whole Barbarian class is even more limited than the fighter class, who st least can get a lot of feats.

And I've played two Celestial Pact warlocks (the only subclass I've doubled down on) who were about this difference. No spells in common, no invocations in common (yes, one of them didn't have Eldritch Blast). And they couldn't have swapped over with getting each others' spell books. "The breadth of a subclass" doesn't mean no breadth at all.

So you ste saying the difference in feel is not about the subclass at all but what you make of it?

So the way you made this one work differently was ... by spending almost half your levels on ... not being a wizard.

I think you mixed up the quote. My Illusion Eizard felt differently than my evoker before and my scribe later because of the subclass abilities. The Evoker with sculpt spell allowed me tonuse AOE Spells that otherwise would have killed Party members. Improved Minir Illusion and mallable Illusion made the Illusion spells work better.

The Wiz/Bard on the other hand could only work with the Bladsinger subclass or it would have no synergy at all.

Again, this feels like same subclass, different background.

But she is different. As the order of the scribe, she actually has a reason to collect spells that she other wouldn't have in her spellbook for the Order of the Scribe features (like exchange spell damage types and use the spells in the book as a meat shield). Like my other Wizards didn't use spell scrolls or copied spells in their spellbook at all, while my order of the scribe Wizard does that all the time.
Could I have interchanged the subclasses?
Not really.
Mt Wiz/Barbarian only works with the Bladsinger. It needs the bladesong feature.
My Illusionist could have been replaced with another subclass, but she would have been worse and couldn't do the Illusion tricks she did do. So she couldn't perform, distract and so on. The difference I would categorise as equal to a life cleric and other clerics. All can heal, the Life cleric can do it especially well. The same is the Illusion class. All Wizards can cast Illusions, but only the Illusion wizard can do it very well.
The same with the evoker. Without her sculpt spell features, she couldn't be a very effective battle mage. Most of the time, other Wizard subclasses wouldn't have been able to use AOE Spells at all.

With my current wizard character with another subclass, I either couldn't use a lot of AOE Spells or would have burned down parts of the city. Casting a ritual as an action once is also nice and ma kfest mind gives me options to use touch spells that would otherwise be not advisable. And it is like a nice scouting tool.

The problem with the Life cleric is that they excel at one thing. It's an important thing but you can have too much of it - and you don't like what it does. But if we take Life Cleric as a class you can have a seasoned adventurer (your first one), a street rat (your second), a multiclass, and an academic quasi-thief. They will be less different from each other because they can always prepare each others' spells; the wizard is a good subclass because it's got picked spells rather than the entire list. But all the personality and background parts you've mentioned apply to any class.

The problem with the Life cleric is, that healing is not very important in the game, that you need to dedicated a whole subclass of healing to the healing character .

 

[Neonchameleon]

I played a pure Barbarian once. I didn't really like it. The whole Barbarian class is even more limited than the fighter class, who st least can get a lot of feats.

The fighter has all of two more feats than the barbarian across 20 levels.

So you ste saying the difference in feel is not about the subclass at all but what you make of it?

No. I'm saying it's both. As you point out barbarians are more limited. Some classes have better subclasses than others and some subclasses are more flexible than others. There's more range for example in Battle Masters than Cavaliers.

I think you mixed up the quote. My Illusion Eizard felt differently than my evoker before and my scribe later because of the subclass abilities. The Evoker with sculpt spell allowed me tonuse AOE Spells that otherwise would have killed Party members. Improved Minir Illusion and mallable Illusion made the Illusion spells work better.

Meanwhile the Sorcerer takes the Careful Spell metamagic and does almost exactly the same thing as the evocation wizard and still has a subclass, and can also pull a lot of what you get out of Scribes with Transmuted Spell. It's this sort of thing that makes me say subclass of sorcerer, and wizards come a definite and distant fourth in terms of variety of the four primary arcane casters while even most of your highlights appear to be within the range of subclass-free sorcerer options. (For the record I find Illusion the best wizard subclass for variety as it's the only one that meaningfully alters what you cast, with Scribes as probably second).