Will you make transsexual Elves canon in your games ?

[Mercurius]

We could also solve all of this by making this little bit of lore into canon: David Bowie and Tilda Swinton had a wild trist and made a baby, and its name was...wait for it...Corellon Larethian, who had mystical powers and left our universe into the D&Dverse, creating the elven species based upon his/her memory of mom and dad.

There: elven origin story.

 

[Sadras]

It is interesting that the sex/gender changing is not an issue in a sci-fi game which embraces trans-humanism like Eclipse Phase where full or part body swapping is the norm. I guess because that is baked into the original premise of the game, whereas as in D&D this seems to be an add-on.

The question arises what does this Blessing have to do with fighting the greater evil (insert evil monster)? My imagination can certainly create an adventure around this Blessing but other than that I'm not sure it is anything else but window dressing in my campaign, background material about a fantastical race/people that the PCs may visit or come to learn of where this Blessing accentuates their alien heritage - which is still quite cool.

My concern is, I don't think the powergamer at my table will roleplay this Blessing correctly (for me). If the idea behind the Blessing is used for espionage-like actions only, then I think they have failed the elven God of War.

 

[Charlaquin]

I haven't seen "transgender" used to refer to nonbinary people before. Not saying you're wrong, of course, just explaining my own usage.

Yup. Cis and trans are simply Latin anotonyms, literally meaning “next to” and “across from” respectively, and since nonbinary people are not cisgender, they are transgender. Transgender is an umbrella term that includes all non-cis genders. For a little while it was in vogue to put an asterisk after trans to indicate one was using it as an umbrella term rather than as to mean a person is transgender and binary, but that didn’t last long. Generally speaking, trans is always an umbrella term, and some transgender folks are binary and others are not.

But the Krill presumably aren't speaking English. The pronoun usage is being projected onto them by Anglophone humans, both in-universe and by us in audience. How can we tell, without reference to perhaps-misleadingly-familiar words, in what terms the Krill themselves conceptualize what's going on?

Ehhh, aliens speak to each other in English when no humans are present to hear them in cutscenes in that game, so I don’t assume the writers put quite that much thought into the possibility of translation errors. But even if we assume that there is some degree of English having insufficient vocabulary to accurately communicate the nuances of the Krill caste system, I would still argue that the choice to “translate” their pronouns differently depending on the stage of life the subject is in is an indication that there is a concept at least roughly analogous to gender associated with caste and morphology at play in their society.

This definition seems to have the curious consequence that in cultures with robust norms creating a place for trans people, trans-ness ceases to exist. If elven society says to those with the Blessing, "We're not going to tell you that you 'should be' a man or a woman, because under the circumstances that would be really dumb", are they still trans? Are they perhaps trans-to-us, because we're still viewing them through the lens of our own culture, while not being trans-to-them?

This is one of the things I love about fantasy. It gives us the frame of reference to ask questions like “would trans-ness still exist in a culture where gender was traditionally chosen rather than assigned?” despite such cultures not existing in real life.

I would say that yes, if elves did not assign genders to their children, elves would not be trans within their own culture, but could be trans to people from cultures that did have more rigid gender norms. For example, let’s assume that in Eladrin culture, it is considered normal for personalities to shift dramatically with the seasons, and the blessing of Corellon is at least common knowledge if not common occurrence, and so they never developed a cultural concept of “men” and “women.” An Eladrin who finds themselves preferring what humans would consider male sex characteristics but exhibits personality traits humans would consider feminine probably wouldn’t develop a strong sense of identity connected to womanhood or manhood, because those just aren’t part of their world. However, if this character made a trip to the prime material plane and encountered humans, those humans might have preconceived notions about this Eladrin based on their physical appearance, manner of dress, and behavior. They might be surprised to learn that this Eladrin is “male,” because of their own cultural gender constructs and related biases. Upon learning how humans view gender and sex, this Eladrin might even incorporate this new perspective into their own sense of self. They might be inclined to refer to themselves as a “woman” around humans, because they find this (admittedly foreign) concept more closely aligned with their identity than that of a “man.” In a human-dominant society, they are for all intents and purposes trans, because their identity as it relates to that culture’s concept of gender does not match the gender that culture’s norms would ascribe to them based on the culture’s own criteria. It’s effectively like having a gender assigned at contact with another culture, instead of at birth.

 

[GreenTengu]

I have been thinking about for a while a solution to the idea that elves can live for hundreds, if not thousands of years and yet they do not seem to accrue any more skills or abilities or knowledge or wisdom than someone who doesn't live even 1/10th that length of time.

Working with the fact that elves don't have to sleep in D&D either, something that should just give them all that much more time to actually learn and improve. And yet... they just don't.

And it can't be that they are just unbearably dense, thick or stupid-- after all, when a player is playing one they advance at the exact same speed as any other race-- and, moreover, as of 4th edition WotC retconned in the idea that elves grow up just as fast as humans.

Now, I suppose there is the possibility that they could just out and out forget how to do everything after a short amount of downtime, but I am not even sure that works.

With most other solutions off the table, the only one I could come up with to explain this property is that although the body may live on, perhaps the identity of the individual does not. Perhaps every several years elves go into some sort of "hibernation" and in that time, perhaps all facets of their identity and memory and experiences gets lost. Or, if not lost, perhaps it gets shared to some sort of nebulous communal memory that they can all access while asleep.

When that elf then wakes up, they can have a completely different personality, have no recollection of their past and may not even choose to carry the same name. For all purposes they become an entirely new "person" who can have experiences and develop basically from scratch.

Although I hadn't considered the idea that they bodies might greatly morph as well as their minds, I think the idea that they could even switch sexes could work along with this idea.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

No, I mean Changelings. They can already change sex characteristics, so it seems weird to me that a lot of people are taking issue with it when it’s elves.

Bear in mind that there are several different issues that people are taking with it. My major issue would be that it may be stepping on the toes of the Changeling's schtick. Hence why my first response to a player wanting to have the Blessing of Corellion would be to find out why, because there may be a better-fitting alternative to what they're after.

@Lychee of the Exch., many now prefer the term transgendered, in case you didn't know.

I believe that the choice of term was deliberate, specifically to distinguish elves that can switch biological sex overnight from transgendered as we would use the term. (Of a different gender than the one their phenotype has expressed.)

Of course there are transgendered elves in the worlds my games are set in, just as there are transgendered dwarves, transgendered hobbits, and transgendered humans.

I have absolutely zero interest in imagining a world where transgendered people don't exist.

Likewise. However I've yet to decide about the aforementioned biological sex-switching elves.

I imagine the Blessing means, one day you look like Leonardo Di Vinci, and the next day you look like Mona Lisa.

Most people would assume these are two different people.

(Apparently, the Mona Lisa is a scientific experimented, where Leonardo wanted to know what he would look like if he was born female rather than male.)

D&D elves show less gender dimorphism than humans for example. I would generally run it as the elf would be recognisably similar in either form. At least 'family member' similarity, and depending upon the clothes, possibly as the same person.

I have been thinking about for a while a solution to the idea that elves can live for hundreds, if not thousands of years and yet they do not seem to accrue any more skills or abilities or knowledge or wisdom than someone who doesn't live even 1/10th that length of time.

Working with the fact that elves don't have to sleep in D&D either, something that should just give them all that much more time to actually learn and improve. And yet... they just don't.

And it can't be that they are just unbearably dense, thick or stupid-- after all, when a player is playing one they advance at the exact same speed as any other race-- and, moreover, as of 4th edition WotC retconned in the idea that elves grow up just as fast as humans.

Keith Baker has an explanation, at least for the Eberron elves based on crystalline intelligence rather than flexible intelligence. Basically elves tend to get set in their ways at around the same time that humans do. It doesn't stop them learning, but they tend to stop innovating. Add to that the fact that elven culture is quite traditional and places a strong emphasis on keeping the ways of their ancestors alive.
A 500 year old elven craftsman has centuries of experience more than a human craftsman, and their mastery of their teacher's methods means that their work is practically identical. The human craftsman employs methods that they were taught, but also some that they came up with themselves. Their work is "good enough" on a practical level rather than the "almost perfect" product of the elf.

Likewise the verbal and somatic components of an elven wizard's fireball spell are exact duplicates of the originator's thousands of years before: the elf has spent decades getting them exact. The human wizard's components are probably recognisable as being from a specific source, but they will have experimented and djusted them based on what works best for them.

Although I hadn't considered the idea that they bodies might greatly morph as well as their minds, I think the idea that they could even switch sexes could work along with this idea.

That is an interesting extension of that concept, which seems to fit it very well.

 

[Maxperson]

Besides, if you think female war gods can’t kick butt, Athena would like to discuss this with you over there in that narrow, poorly lit alley over there...

That wouldn't be wise.

 

[Eltab]

I rather doubt that, even in the most combat/tactical-focused, RP-less campaigns, there is zero sign of romantic relationships.

I described an episodic dungeon crawl where all the NPCs are inhabitants of the dungeon du jour. Everything else is hand-waved: "We go back to town to heal up and buy new equipment. Where does the next adventure start?" "Oh this new dungeon full of monsters."

My old Tiamat group really liked pulling out the map and minis and making to-hit rolls; eyes glazed over when I described a scene or tried to drop NPC character hooks. So I can see where the all-combat game is a possible style. No romance needed.

 

[Maxperson]

On the other hand, I do think there's a subtle distinction being made by some that is worth repeating: there's a problem with linking gender identity with "real world issues" or "culture wars" that we use D&D as an escape from. Do not trans people also have the same right to escape from real world issues into fantasy, while bringing their own identity with them? I generally prefer to play hetero male characters, so have no issue with someone wanting to play a character that aligns with their own sexual preference and/or gender identification.

As I explained to [MENTION=6879661]TheSword[/MENTION], there's a difference between playing a transgender person in the world and the DM making that happen, and bringing in real world issues relating to gender. I won't be having these elves in my game due to the real world issues and the escape from those issues that the game represents, but I will be allowing a transgender PC should a player ever want to make one.

 

[Maxperson]

I have been thinking about for a while a solution to the idea that elves can live for hundreds, if not thousands of years and yet they do not seem to accrue any more skills or abilities or knowledge or wisdom than someone who doesn't live even 1/10th that length of time.

Working with the fact that elves don't have to sleep in D&D either, something that should just give them all that much more time to actually learn and improve. And yet... they just don't.

And it can't be that they are just unbearably dense, thick or stupid-- after all, when a player is playing one they advance at the exact same speed as any other race-- and, moreover, as of 4th edition WotC retconned in the idea that elves grow up just as fast as humans.

Now, I suppose there is the possibility that they could just out and out forget how to do everything after a short amount of downtime, but I am not even sure that works.

With most other solutions off the table, the only one I could come up with to explain this property is that although the body may live on, perhaps the identity of the individual does not. Perhaps every several years elves go into some sort of "hibernation" and in that time, perhaps all facets of their identity and memory and experiences gets lost. Or, if not lost, perhaps it gets shared to some sort of nebulous communal memory that they can all access while asleep.

When that elf then wakes up, they can have a completely different personality, have no recollection of their past and may not even choose to carry the same name. For all purposes they become an entirely new "person" who can have experiences and develop basically from scratch.

Although I hadn't considered the idea that they bodies might greatly morph as well as their minds, I think the idea that they could even switch sexes could work along with this idea.

The best explanation I've heard is that they don't learn as quickly, because as a race they just aren't time pressured to do it. A human will be practicing constantly to hone skills, whereas an elf might learn how to pick locks, and then go do other things or relax for 10 or 20 years before getting back to practicing it some more. Elven PCs would be an exception to that since they are involved in a lot of practice in a very short period of time during adventures.

 

[Eltab]

I hope the scriptwriters for the upcoming Dr. Who season get a copy of this thread, so they can see some of the minefields they will have to navigate.