Why is the Gish so popular with players?

[The Sigil]

In a recent Matt Colville livestream, he mused a little bit about the Gish, to wit, he noted he feels to some degree, the Gish arises out of the following:

1. In a class-based RPG, you are usually asked to pick one thing you are an expert at (your class). For instance, you can be great at swords (fighter) OR spells (mage).

2. Matt stated his belief is there is always some percentage of the population that react to the choice "pick A or B" with a reflexive "I refuse! I MUST have both A AND B!"

In my head, this reflexive refusal most often comes from a player that wants his character to be good at everything rather than simply indecisiveness. This could be the "I want to be the star" syndrome or perhaps "I don't feel I can rely on others, so I don't like playing a role on a team" or it could be a "I want absolutely no weaknesses" or it could be "martial fighting looks fun, spellcasting looks fun, and I have a fear of missing out." I understand that Gandalf used Glamdring in LotR and that never bothered me, but probably because I never saw Gandalf as trying to cast himself as the martial equal of Aragon, Boromir, Gimli, Legolas, etc. I feel wanting to be "good at everything" is a sign of immaturity, as I find flaws make a character just as (perhaps more) interesting than strengths.

So I think I'm coming to most tables with a presupposition about the PLAYER whenever someone unfurls a Gish character sheet ("oh, boy, we got a diva here" or "well, I can already tell this person won't play well with others"), whether I am a player or a DM. In other words, when I see "Gish" I think "toxic player" - and I think that's baggage that I am carrying to the table rather than baggage that player is bringing to the table (though like most of us, I have seen players bringing exactly the "I have to be Superman" baggage to the table, but that's on a case-by-case basis and is certainly not limited to playing a Gish).

Help me understand other reasons people might have for desiring to play a gish so I can find some ways to model players in my head that don't come with this negativity baked in, please. Even if I don't think I'll ever want to play a Gish myself, I'd like to rid myself of negativity towards players that do. Thank you!

EDIT: In other words, "I don't find the Gish concept compelling and because I personally can't think of reasons to find it compelling except ones I find distasteful, I think players that find the Gish concept compelling are lame. I'm not asking you to convince me Gishes are cool - that's a matter of taste. What I DO want is to provide me some reasons that OTHERS may find it compelling that are different than what I modeled above so that I can pick some that I don't find distasteful and thus overcome my bias against players that like playing Gishes."

 

[TwoSix]

2. Matt stated his belief is there is always some percentage of the population that react to the choice "pick A or B" with a reflexive "I refuse! I MUST have both A AND B!"

In my head, this reflexive refusal most often comes from a player that wants his character to be good at everything rather than simply indecisiveness.

Close. Mostly, for me as someone who plays a Gish about 80% of the time, it's just contrariness. If someone tells me "Pick A or B", my first thought is pretty much always "Why not both?"

If I see a built in limitation, my natural inclination is to try and bypass it. There's nothing I like less than playing according to type.

I've also just always preferred well-rounded, in the middle characters. In Gauntlet, I always picked the Valkyrie. In AD&D, I generally liked clerics.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

The fox knows many things but the hedgehog knows one big thing.

Gish players are foxes.

 

[Pedantic]

There's an aesthetic answer, which is that "sword and spell is cool and feels appreciable different than just sword or spell" and that's definitely been fed by outside media that showcases various takes on the theme.

The gameplay answer, if a player is not thinking aesthetically, seems to be rooted in versatility as a virtue. The Gish is theoretically a character with a lot of tools, and the versatility to have some kind of response or relevant skill to most occasions. You can fight, and thus have the primary risk mitigated, and even if you're not doing as impactful magical things as a full caster, you can expect to apply your smaller magical talents in creative ways to a lot of different situations.

 

[TwoSix]

The gameplay answer, if a player is not thinking aesthetically, seems to be rooted in versatility as a virtue. The Gish is theoretically a character with a lot of tools, and the versatility to have some kind of response or relevant skill to most occasions. You can fight, and thus have the primary risk mitigated, and even if you're not doing as impactful magical things as a full caster, you can expect to apply your smaller magical talents in creative ways to a lot of different situations.

Agreed. To me, it's much less of "I'm always the star" and more "I'm never actively sidelined, and always have something to contribute."

 

[FrogReaver]

There's an aesthetic answer, which is that "sword and spell is cool and feels appreciable different than just sword or spell" and that's definitely been fed by outside media that showcases various takes on the theme.

The gameplay answer, if a player is not thinking aesthetically, seems to be rooted in versatility as a virtue. The Gish is theoretically a character with a lot of tools, and the versatility to have some kind of response or relevant skill to most occasions. You can fight, and thus have the primary risk mitigated, and even if you're not doing as impactful magical things as a full caster, you can expect to apply your smaller magical talents in creative ways to a lot of different situations.

Yep. some combination of versatility, aesthetics, and desire for some gimmick that’s greatly aided by casting.

 

[Zubatcarteira]

Warrior with magic is a pretty common concept in fiction to emulate, it looks cool, and spells can be overpowered compared to the martial systems, so getting some can make your character far more effective.

 

[Dustin Cooper]

The appeal of gishes to me isn't "I want all the wizard stuff and all the fighter stuff," it's "I want to do over the top, unrealistic nonsense with weapon combat." Like my favorite gish class is the 4e Swordmage, where I can do things like teleport an enemy next to me so I can immediately hit them, simultaneously stab everyone adjacent to me in a logically impossible way, and do an attack that magically prevents an enemy from approaching my allies. Like it's a separate fantasy than being a big strong guy with a greatsword or a scholar with a long beard throwing fireball.

I actually don't like either Eldritch Knight or Bladesinger in 5e that much. 5e eventually added a few spells that feel like they're integrated into melee combat, but it's not all that many, so it feels like a lot of the time, you're either going to be doing a standard fighter thing or a standard wizard thing, not really integrating the magic with your melee combat. The fact that I could be a bladesinger and still just hide in the back line and toss fireballs and if anything be more effective than actually making use of the melee stuff is a huge negative to me. I'd actually prefer if there was a real cost to doing standard wizard stuff in exchange for the melee power.

The 5e fighter subclasses Rune Knight, Echo Knight, and Psi Warrior are actually much closer to what I think of as a good gish than anything that actually tries mixing 5e's spell system with melee combat. I just wish they could all use the over the top nonsense more continuously, and I'd happily give up some bonuses fighters get for the priveledge.

 

[Parmandur]

I'm not so sure the Gish is all that popular with players?

 

[GuardianLurker]

In earlier editions (less so in 5e and co.) Gishes could be effectively regarded as the Arcane equivalent to the Divine Paladins. IOW, a way to play a Paladin without worrying about alignment. I don't think I ever explicitly saw that stated though.

There are also a number of fictional concepts around supernaturally empowered warriors that are really hard to model in D&D. And the D&D implementation slider is fairly chunky in this area. A few minor spell-likes that don't change is easily modelled with a background, or a feat, or similar. A little bit more than that, and you start looking at bladelocks or reflavored/homebrewed champions. A little bit more than that, and now you're into pure gish (full warrior/mage) territory.