Why Identify?

[uzagi_akimbo]

This thread reminds me of a question I've had for a little while now: Has anyone ever used self-identifying magic items in a game? I'm fairly sure I saw stuff about it in Magic of Faerun and in the DMG; just a percentage chance that an item will let its owner know exactly what it is when he holds it, nothing fancy.

Because personally, I have NEVER played in a game where any non-intelligent item was self-identifying. Not even once. Not even one tiny, inconsequential item. It's always been "cast identify or take your chances with trial-and-error." (And trial and error was usually a GM euphemism for "I'll let you waste an hour or two of playing time trying stupid things until you give up and just get it Identified.")

I bet GMs who are beginning to worry about all the 100gp pearls that are found, sold, and consumed in the casting of Identify spells could help reduce the stress on those poor li'l oysters if they just made a few items ID themselves, y'know?

--
like it's supposed to be a big secret that a sword bursts into flames
ryan

Been doing that for the better part of the last dozen years. Sometimes just partially, often fully. Some stuff is obvious - like say, judging that a certain sword has a +2 enchantment, but perhaps the player will need some time or a spell to find out that they actually swing a +2 sword , undead bane. Or why the paladin swinging that new greatsword +3 has fallen out of favour recently with his diety - because the sword is also a vampiric soulsucking blade...
Same goes for a Cloak of Elvenkind, Eyes of Darkvison etc.. but how does one tell the effect of a ring of mind-shielding ? How does one use a hat of disguise ? What are the triggerwords for the Staff of the Archmagi ? Or has my strange series of mishaps anything to do with that mystical amulet I have found in those ruins ? Or do the runes inscribed on the chestplate the armour is warded against negative energy or confer just an immunity to fear ?

That's where Identify, Analyze Dweomer and their likes come in.
As for the pearl - we use Identify with a pearl - but, the pearl will not dissolve and can be reused. So you need to have a 100gp pearl around (still an investment at lower levels) - which may get stolen, bartered into save your life, inadvisable to use in the current situation etc etc...
Of course, strangely enough, we tend to have a bunch of clerics serving the deities of magic, who's magic domain gives access to the spell anyway (at 2nd level), and who's divine focus circumvents the pearl problem in the first place.

 

[D+1]

It obvious, really. You want to know what the item is, you cast identify.

But why does it cost 100 gp? If there's one thing I've found in years of gaming that's always a pain, it is the need to identify items and find 100 gp pearls. Is it a game balance thing?

Material components are occasionally extremely rare/expensive as a matter of attempting to maintain some game balance (if it tells you the component costs Xgp or can only be obtained under circumstance y, then it's a game balance thing), but as a rule they are really just pointless roleplaying bits. The 100gp cost for casting identifies is largely a matter of encouraging low-level characters to experiment to find out the abilities of their items. It's a means to drain some cash resources from PC's and since they'll likely be very picky about what items they pay to identify there is some element of power and mystery maintained about magic items.

The fact that the cash cost is in the form of a pearl is really irrelevant. Many spell compenents tend to be puns, plays on words, common associations, etc. The pearl is associated with finding valuable treasure or information - searching oysters to find pearls, hearing pearls of wisdom, etc. The same with the owl feather. Folklore has it that owls are very wise and knowledgable - just the sort of creature you'd want to associate with in discovering information about magic.

The disadvantage or difficulty in removing the gp cost or removing the need for the spell at all is primarily that magic loses it's air of power and mystery immediately. If you can get the spell anywhere for no cost or if you don't need the spell at all it DOES change the way magic is dealt with at lower levels. No reason you can't change that, but be aware of the "risks".

 

[Chimera]

Gee, just consider if shopkeepers didn't automatically and without merit accept your word on what a magic item does! They might further reduce the sale price of the item by their own cost/price of doing an Identify spell on each item.

It doesn't really make sense that they'd just take everyone's word on what the magic items people are trying to sell do, does it?

 

[Pax]

I've always held that one of the worst flaws of 3.X edition rules, is the inexplicable failure to take component costs into account when calculating a spell's level. Generally, the effects are balanced for the chosen/stated level ... without concern or regard for the expense generated by a material component.

IMO, a 10gp material component or a 100gp Focus would have been entirely more appropriate for this spell.

 

[Michael Morris]

I loathe the identify spell as written in the PHB. I use this alternate.

[bq]Identify
Universal
Level: (1), Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 minute / level (D)

You gain a +20 insight bonus on spellcraft checks. [/bq]

I then rewrote the spellcraft skill to include magical items.

[bq]Use spellcraft to identify spells and the works of spells including magic items and materials wrought by magic. The spellcraft skill is merged with the identify spell to remove an artificial restriction on this skill. Of all the skills, spellcraft is the most heavily rewritten here.
Check: You check spellcraft whenever you wish to identify a spell or magic item. The DC is set by what you wish to identify.
Identify Glyph (Not an action, No retry, secret check): When using the read magic spell you can identify a glyph of warding on a check of DC 13.
Identify a Spell in Casting (Free action, No retry): You can identify a spell while it is cast on a check DC 15+spell level. For each component of the spell that you cannot observe the check is penalized by –4. You can’t identify a spell that you cannot observe any component of.
Prepare a spell from a borrowed spellbook (1 try / day, no extra time required): You prepare a spell from a captured or borrowed spellbook on a check DC 15+spell level (Wizard only).
Identify School or Type (Standard Action): When you use detect magic you can identify the school or type of the strongest spell in the area on the first round, the second strongest spell on the next round and so on until all school and types have been identified. The DC of this check is 15+spell level + 2 per higher level effect present. If the effect is not generated by a spell then the DC is 15+ ½ HD or caster level of the creating creature.
Identify Symbol (Not an action, No retry): With a DC 19 check you can identify a symbol with a read magic spell.
Identify Spell in Place (Free action, No retry): You can identify a spell that’s already in place so long as you can see it’s effects. The DC is 20+spell level.
Identify Materials formed by a Conjuration (Creation) effect (Free Action, No retry), such as wall of iron or wall of stone. The DC is 20+spell level.
Decipher a Scroll or Spellbook (1 round, 1 try/day) without using read magic is a DC 25 + spell level check.
Identify a potion (1 minute / No retry). You can identify a potion on a DC 25 check. You need alchemist tools or you will suffer a –2 circumstance penalty on this check.
Dimensional Anchor Diagram (10 minutes, Secret check, No retry): On a DC 20 check you can draw a diagram upon which you can cast dimensional anchor onto a magic circle.
Identify Wondrous Item (1 minute, Cascade check, No retry). You can identify one function or property of a wondrous item per success. The DC is 30+spell level.
Identify Arms, Armor or Wand (1 minute, Cascade check, No retry). You can identify one function or property of magic weapons, armor or a wand per success. The DC is 35+spell level.
Identify Rod, Staff or Ring (1 minute, Cascade Check, No retry): You can identify one function or property of a magic rod per success. The DC is 40+spell level.
Identify Unclassified Effect: At the DM’s option you may roll a spellcraft check to identify the properties of magical effects that don’t fall into any of the above categories.
Special: An identify spell grants you a +20 insight bonus on spellcraft checks (See new description later in this chapter). It can also allow you to take 20 on those checks under certain circumstances.
A specialist wizard gains a +2 bonus to his spellcraft rolls where his school is concerned. He has a –2 penalty to his rolls where his barred schools are concerned.
A magi gains a +2 bonus to his spellcraft rolls where his type is concerned. He has a –2 penalty to his rolls where his opposition schools are concerned.
Any race has a +2 circumstance bonus to spellcraft rolls to identify items crafted for or as a bane to their race. Hence an elf can apply this bonus to identify a cloak of elvenkind or a dagger crafted to slay elves.[/bq]

The upshot of this is that "routine" items can be identified with or without the spell - low level characters will be dependent on it while high level characters will reserve it for especially difficult items. Epic level characters will be able to do without the spell - which makes sense to me at least. YMMV.

 

[coyote6]

We changed the 100+ gp pearl material component to a 100+ gp pearl focus.

 

[dcollins]

All that with the removal of a single spell? Boy, that is a balancing act the designers pulled off.

Hello? I repeat: it's balanced with or without the spell, that's a nonissue. The issue is flavor... option (a) all character's have some automatic magic-power identifying ESP, or option (b) you have to go to a wizard and use a particular spell to get at a magic item's exact functionality and trigger.

Seems like option (b) is a lot easier to suspend disbelief in.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I figure that this kind of thing is generally why PCs buy magic items for full price but generally sell for half price.

For cheap items, they have to pay for an identify spell from a trustworthy source and whatever fees for the wizard or priest's time are necessary in order to have him either:
A. Verify that said item is what he identified (often, wizards will use Arcane Mark to keep track of this).
or
B. Cast Identify again in the presence of the buyer and verify the powers of the item. (Obviously, this is expensive).

For expensive items, people take more serious precautions like isolating the items to ensure spell durations wear off, casting dispel magic (just in case there's a Nystul's magical/antimagical aura), and even casting Analyze Dweomer (if you're spending 50,000 to buy a +5 sword some adventurer found in a tomb because you got suckered into a duel with Sir Lancealot and you need some serious magic weapons to stand a chance, the cost of Analyze Dweomer is well worth it).

After tacking on the local taxes and excise fees (or bribes to officials to look the other way), buying the right people drinks and publicizing the fact that you've got a magic item to sell, it all comes out to about half.

Admittedly, it's a rather limited economic model designed with only a couple factors in mind (1. People want to avoid being cheated by the really obvious exploits available to 3.x rogues and wizards 2. Players buy items at full price but sell for half). However, I think it's good enough for most D&D games.

So, the moral of the post is this: shopkeepers don't just automatically take PCs' words; they take serious precautions to avoid being cheated. However, since this is Dungeons and Dragons not Contracts and Caravans (the game of Fantasy Merchantry aka Magic Item Tycoon), most of that takes place off-screen through the simple "Buy full, sell half" mechanic.

Gee, just consider if shopkeepers didn't automatically and without merit accept your word on what a magic item does! They might further reduce the sale price of the item by their own cost/price of doing an Identify spell on each item.

It doesn't really make sense that they'd just take everyone's word on what the magic items people are trying to sell do, does it?

 

[hong]

Hello? I repeat: it's balanced with or without the spell, that's a nonissue. The issue is flavor... option (a) all character's have some automatic magic-power identifying ESP, or option (b) you have to go to a wizard and use a particular spell to get at a magic item's exact functionality and trigger.

Seems like option (b) is a lot easier to suspend disbelief in.

It seems like a remarkably strange world, where all the flavour seems to be tied up in one piddly 1st level spell. What colour is the sky over there?

 

[Mephistopheles]

I loathe the identify spell as written in the PHB. I use this alternate.

[bq]Identify
Universal
Level: (1), Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 minute / level (D)

You gain a +20 insight bonus on spellcraft checks. [/bq]

...

Epic level characters will be able to do without the spell

But they certainly won't want to. A +20 on Spellcraft checks is a nice boost for casting that epic spell that would otherwise be out of reach. Is this an intended side-effect or do you have some clause not in the rewritten Spellcraft skill to cover it?