D&D General Why Do You Think Wizards Are Boring?

[CreamCloud0]

i've mentioned in threads before: i think the wizard really needs to loose a significant portion of their directly offensive spells and a few others and become functionally a 'magic toolbox' leaning into the magic utility-support role EDIT:wizards role should thrive on actually having and using those 'situational but powerful' spells, ironically i think you need to reduce their overall capabilities so you can appreciate what they can do when they do do it, turn those 'this problem is now not' into a peak of the wizard experience rather than the standard.

a wizard provides solutions to a good many problems with all their spells that do different things, casting fly to get over that canyon, dispell magic on that supernaturally locked door, detect thoughts on the enemy guard to learn information, those are the reasons you bring a wizard, but they are (comparatively) frail and lack versatile attacking solutions, a wizard contributes to a battle by hasting the frontline warrior, laying down a wall of fire, casting crown of madness the opposing side's brute, so even if their not dealing direct damage numbers they're still a force that shapes how the battle plays out

sure they can keep some of their iconic offensive spells, magic missile, chromatic orb, fireball, lighting bolt and so on, but with the core idea that casting those spells isn't the point of the wizard, their either lacking in base power/scalling(magic missile, chromatic orb) or difficult to apropriately target(fireball, lightning bolt)

subclasses then come in with expanded spell lists and extentions to what they can copy into their spellbooks to form highly thematic powersets (you are a necromancer, you know bane, summon + command undead, ray of sickness, and can scribe any spells that are in the school of necromancy or deal necrotic damage, you are an elementalist, you know sleet storm, call lightning, summon elemental, warding wind and can scribe evocation spells from the primal spell list(or something...))

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Having too many classes is part of the problem. A lot of the cool flavor that wizards have in fiction resides in 5E with the warlock and, to a lesser extent, the sorcerer.

If there was one arcane magic user class, they could be using metamagic, making deals with strange entities for forbidden knowledge and so on. As it is, rolling any of that back to the wizard would screw over those other classes. And merging the three classes together -- even if all three playstyles still existed inside the new class -- would lead to outrage that make the loss of the warlord and pure psionics classes seem like an afterthought.

 

[Mind of tempest]

I think, specifically in the context of 5e, one could find them somewhat mechanically boring because they have the best single class feature (full spellcasting from the broadest, most powerful spell list), and most of their other class features and subclass options just broaden that feature a bit. There isn't a lot to optimize or build around for a wizard, because they're pretty self-contained.

The other "boring" issue is that their tropes haven't really evolved in the past 40 years or so...a concept you had for a wizard back in 1982 is probably still pretty valid today. You can call that "classic", of course, others who enjoy novelty more might find it more boring.

I don't think current wizards are boring, per se, although they're not my favorite. They're far from their demigod peak of the 3.5 era, which was the single best time to play a wizard.

how would we evolve the wizard?

 

[Ruin Explorer]

1) They make other classes boring.
Thanks to 'niche protection' and the wizard's niche being 'does anything with magic', a ton of design space is cut off for other classes.

2) Prep Casting
In stead of just having your spells, you have homework each game day in which you try to guess what the DM is going to throw at you and react to that.

3) Lack of Promise of the Premise
The wizard is specifically a character from Dying Earth and works like no other mage in popular culture. You cna't really use the wizard to play anything but a D&D wizard.

I came here and I would have said the same thing less articulately and with 10x as many words.

But yeah this is spot on. #1 also causes wizards to have basically no flavour at all themselves, because all they are is "guy who casts all the spells".

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Having too many classes is part of the problem. A lot of the cool flavor that wizards have in fiction resides in 5E with the warlock and, to a lesser extent, the sorcerer.

If there was one arcane magic user class, they could be using metamagic, making deals with strange entities for forbidden knowledge and so on. As it is, rolling any of that back to the wizard would screw over those other classes. And merging the three classes together -- even if all three playstyles still existed inside the new class -- would lead to outrage that make the loss of the warlord and pure psionics classes seem like an afterthought.

You're illustrating the key underlying issue with 5E (and 1D&D/6E), the weight of tradition conflicting with what the game would actually benefit from.

Every year the problem gets worse. 4E tried to break the cycle a bit and got punished for it though, and WotC isn't going to risk killing the golden goose, so we're stuck with a number of classes that absolutely shouldn't exist because they don't represent distinct archetypes and arguably hurt the game more than they help it.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

i've mentioned in threads before: i think the wizard really needs to loose a significant portion of their directly offensive spells and a few others and become functionally a 'magic toolbox' leaning into the magic utility-support role EDIT:wizards role should thrive on actually having and using those 'situational but powerful' spells, ironically i think you need to reduce their overall capabilities so you can appreciate what they can do when they do do it, turn those 'this problem is now not' into a peak of the wizard experience rather than the standard.

a wizard provides solutions to a good many problems with all their spells that do different things, casting fly to get over that canyon, dispell magic on that supernaturally locked door, detect thoughts on the enemy guard to learn information, those are the reasons you bring a wizard, but they are (comparatively) frail and lack versatile attacking solutions, a wizard contributes to a battle by hasting the frontline warrior, laying down a wall of fire, casting crown of madness the opposing side's brute, so even if their not dealing direct damage numbers they're still a force that shapes how the battle plays out

sure they can keep some of their iconic offensive spells, magic missile, chromatic orb, fireball, lighting bolt and so on, but with the core idea that casting those spells isn't the point of the wizard, their either lacking in base power/scalling(magic missile, chromatic orb) or difficult to apropriately target(fireball, lightning bolt)

subclasses then come in with expanded spell lists and extentions to what they can copy into their spellbooks to form highly thematic powersets (you are a necromancer, you know bane, summon + command undead, ray of sickness, and can scribe any spells that are in the school of necromancy or deal necrotic damage, you are an elementalist, you know sleet storm, call lightning, summon elemental, warding wind and can scribe evocation spells from the primal spell list(or something...))

Although I disagree on the particulars, I like the idea of giving wizards a smaller core spell list and moving a lot of their other spells to subclass features. (And for the folks who balk at that, there could be a generalist subclass that just gives a lot of additional spell choices, but few or no other subclass abilities.)

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

You're illustrating the key underlying issue with 5E (and 1D&D/6E), the weight of tradition conflicting with what the game would actually benefit from.

Every year the problem gets worse. 4E tried to break the cycle a bit and got punished for it though, and WotC isn't going to risk killing the golden goose, so we're stuck with a number of classes that absolutely shouldn't exist because they don't represent distinct archetypes and arguably hurt the game more than they help it.

Yeah, if I were designing a game where wizards and spellcasters felt amazing, it would look a lot more like Ars Magica. Doing that inside the D&D brand would be almost impossible, though.

 

[Vaalingrade]

how would we evolve the wizard?

Drop the 8 schools.

Then sunder the wizard into multiple classes the conjurer (Necromancer, Summoner, Blaster), and the Spellweaver (Scribe, Transmuter, and Abjurer). Give them spelllists of their own but also other things to do besides nerd spells.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Drop the 8 schools.

Then sunder the wizard into multiple classes the conjurer (Necromancer, Summoner, Blaster), and the Spellweaver (Scribe, Transmuter, and Abjurer). Give them spelllists of their own but also other things to do besides nerd spells.

This is illusionist erasure. That's illusionists' job, pal!

Also, "nerd spells" is extremely wizardly.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

2E wizards had more spells since they didn't have scaling cantrips they could spam. They also didn't have a bunch if reaction stuff, so they were only belting out so many spells per combat.

I still don't think the original claim follows, even allowing for this, which I admit I had not. (Though IMO the reaction spells are much, much less significant an impact than you assert here. Not no impact, but not "belting out" tons more spells.)

Having scaling cantrips as reliable (if basic) options means, if you really want, all of your regular spells can be weird, esoteric, impractical, or ultra-DM-dependent. Playing a hardcore illusionist is no longer tantamount to choosing not to deal damage. Taking a bubble bath spell no longer means nearly as big a sacrifice, so it comes closer to a value judgment rather than a dull calculation.

I'm reminded of the Zee Bashew short video about "The Diviner Who Knew Too Little." Halfling diviner wizard with the Lucky feat, waltzing through life hilariously unaware of just how much chance warps around him. With just a single solid offensive cantrip (or perhaps two, one for melee, one for range, e.g. shocking grasp and mind sliver), you can dedicate all your other spells to whatever strikes your fancy. Buffs, illusions, terrain effects, movement, whatever. And if you find you have an extra cantrip spot, frostbite slots in neatly for yet more probability-manipulation.

This is illusionist erasure. That's illusionists' job, pal!

Fork 'em out into a Guild Wars style "mesmer" class.

Also, "nerd spells" is extremely wizardly.

I mean, it would be, if Wizards ever actually DID nerd things. But they don't, which is a big part of why Wizards are boring.