Pathfinder 2E Why are all the magic items so boring?

[Justice and Rule]

That's often the problem with powers like that; they either don't start out with a good enough DC or don't keep up with what you're running in long enough to stay relevant. This may be partly a side effect of the fact most modern non OSR D&D-oids have a fairly fast level progression.

The easy way to fix that would be to allow it to scale with the player (with a bonus to the magical action) or maybe (since it's a spell effect) not let its special attack increase MAP.

Edit: Alternatively, your magical attack allows you to move through the opponent while doing the trip/push attack for free, with resistance equal to your level for any Reaction Attacks. naughty word, I might make this weapon now...

 

[Thomas Shey]

The easy way to fix that would be to allow it to scale with the player (with a bonus to the magical action) or maybe (since it's a spell effect) not let its special attack increase MAP.

Edit: Alternatively, your magical attack allows you to move through the opponent while doing the trip/push attack for free, with resistance equal to your level for any Reaction Attacks. naughty word, I might make this weapon now...

Its not just a problem with that particular item, though. I don't remember which of the energy damage weapon traits it is, but there's one that forces the target to make a save or take a condition. I'm not sure I ever saw it work.

Even though its hard to rationalize what's going on, having such effects scale with the player is probably the only practical way to do it; any other way of setting the DC is going to spend a considerable time either too good or useless.

 

[nevin]

I'm a player in a PF2 game. My character is 5th level and has a few magic items (beyond the "core" stuff I must have to stay relevant). I have an item that can cast Grease once per day and an Onyx watchdog once per week. I've used the Grease once and the watchdog twice.
I also have a magical property on my sword that I can turn it into a wave of water to knock someone prone - I've never used the feature.
In most cases it goes back to the argument we were having online a couple years ago about "illusion of choice:" between an interesting action and the effective thing you do most turns, you choose the effective thing.
If magic items were interesting, we wouldn't use them often. They have to enhance what we're good at, so they don't seem interesting.

that's pathfinder though. Good choices and bad choices so the player get to decide. PF2e is a bit better than 1e but it still suffers from the plethora of bad or so-so choices that simply don't measure up to the few things that are generically useful.

 

[stonehead]

You can get an ambulatory cauldron that toddles around behind you at level 1. You can get a tattoo that basically turns you into a werecreature at level 6.

There can always be more fun items, but the main issue I see is that so many items have no DC or bonus scaling so they become vendor trash instead of something you make a lasting part of your character story.

I'm a player in a PF2 game. My character is 5th level and has a few magic items (beyond the "core" stuff I must have to stay relevant). I have an item that can cast Grease once per day and an Onyx watchdog once per week. I've used the Grease once and the watchdog twice.
I also have a magical property on my sword that I can turn it into a wave of water to knock someone prone - I've never used the feature.
In most cases it goes back to the argument we were having online a couple years ago about "illusion of choice:" between an interesting action and the effective thing you do most turns, you choose the effective thing.
If magic items were interesting, we wouldn't use them often. They have to enhance what we're good at, so they don't seem interesting.

Thank you for the recommendations. The onyx dog actually looks interesting!

In the time since creating this thread, I have found a few more items I like. Cloak of Illusions and Retrieval Belt both seem like fun, interesting items.

I also read that the designers wanted your character to find an item, use it for a level or two, and then replace it with something better. That's why all the DCs are so bad and don't scale.

I really don't understand that design decision though. I tend to get attached to cool things I find. A unique item becomes as much a part of my character as the feats I take, so it feels bad to throw it away. Is replacing your old gear a part of some power fantasy that I'm just not aware of? Do other people really enjoy selling their old items?

 

[Retreater]

I really don't understand that design decision though. I tend to get attached to cool things I find. A unique item becomes as much a part of my character as the feats I take, so it feels bad to throw it away. Is replacing your old gear a part of some power fantasy that I'm just not aware of? Do other people really enjoy selling their old items?

I don't enjoy it. I would prefer items to be integrated better as a part of the character and be useful for long stretches of time: Bilbo and Sting, Drizzt and Guenhwyvar, Han and the Falcon.
Having equipment that you just "throw away" kills the story and is a wasted opportunity.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I really don't understand that design decision though. I tend to get attached to cool things I find. A unique item becomes as much a part of my character as the feats I take, so it feels bad to throw it away. Is replacing your old gear a part of some power fantasy that I'm just not aware of? Do other people really enjoy selling their old items?

Its likely more that it avoids the "scaling with level" thing we discussed earlier, which can feel really odd to some people.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I don't enjoy it. I would prefer items to be integrated better as a part of the character and be useful for long stretches of time: Bilbo and Sting, Drizzt and Guenhwyvar, Han and the Falcon.
Having equipment that you just "throw away" kills the story and is a wasted opportunity.

This is probably a carry-over from all the way back to OD&D, really, when so many items routinely crossed your hands that only the best were likely to stick around for the duration of a character.

 

[CommodoreKong]

Yeah having played PF2e for a few years now the magic item system needs an improvement. Automatic bonus progression should be baked into the default rules, since you have to buy the runes to actually stay competitive with the monsters at your level, especially for melee focused characters, meaning you need to save up for runes.

Properly runes and other magic items have fixed DCs meaning they very quickly become worthless with the way monster saving throws work. Why they don’t use your class DC (or spell DC if higher) I couldn’t say but that would be better.

And yeah in general most magic items feel pretty blah. I know the designers don’t want to break the math and I respect that but it feels like there could be some middle ground they could have found to make magic items a little more memorable and interesting.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Yeah having played PF2e for a few years now the magic item system needs an improvement. Automatic bonus progression should be baked into the default rules, since you have to buy the runes to actually stay competitive with the monsters at your level, especially for melee focused characters, meaning you need to save up for runes.

You're not likely to get much movement there, since that was an initial design idea that a big part of the playtesters proved hostile to. Basically, that ship has sailed as far as the official product.

Properly runes and other magic items have fixed DCs meaning they very quickly become worthless with the way monster saving throws work. Why they don’t use your class DC (or spell DC if higher) I couldn’t say but that would be better.

I'm going to just speculate here that it was felt it would seem weird that they interacted with you that way. D&D and its descendants carry on some simulationist leanings occasionally that don't always do other elements of its design any favors.

And yeah in general most magic items feel pretty blah. I know the designers don’t want to break the math and I respect that but it feels like there could be some middle ground they could have found to make magic items a little more memorable and interesting.

Well, I still am of the opinion in a game system which tries (and mostly succeeds) at combat and other balance, those two pieces of rope are very hard to meet in the middle. I still think it adds up to "overpowered, bland, or cute but mostly pointless".

 

[Incenjucar]

In general magic items that are intended to be discarded should be limited-use consumables so they're not taking up the same cost and space as permanent items. You're otherwise running into thr D&D 4E problem where you're forced to discard your favorite powers to keep up with the math.

By level 20 you should be able to upgrade everything to be roughly the same bonuses/DCs.