TSR When TSR Passed On Tolkien

Benjamin Riggs recently revealed this tidbit of TSR history -- Lorraine Williams passing on the rights to Tolkien's works in 1992!

"So, in 1992, TSR almost acquired the rights to JRR Tolkien's work. John Rateliff was sent to London to negotiate the deal, missing Gen Con. (Apparently, no TSR employees were allowed to miss Gen Con, but he was for this...) He met Christopher Tolkien at the Harper-Collins offices, where he asked for the rights to make RPGs, merch, and new books set in Middle-Earth. Chris Tolkien said yes to the RPGs, and some merch, but no to the fiction line.

Back in Lake Geneva, Rateliff communicated this to TSR CEO Lorraine Williams. Rateliff said, "Her immortal words were, ‘Not worth our while.’”

She then passed on the whole deal."

Rateliff wrote the book The History of the Hobbit: The Hobbit / Mr. Baggins / Return to Bag-end.

Amazon.com: The History of the Hobbit: The Hobbit / Mr. Baggins / Return to Bag-end: 9780618964406: Rateliff, John D., Tolkien, J. R. R.: Books

Amazon.com: The History of the Hobbit: The Hobbit / Mr. Baggins / Return to Bag-end: 9780618964406: Rateliff, John D., Tolkien, J. R. R.: Books

www.amazon.com

 

[TarionzCousin]

Just think, we could have legally been calling halflings "hobbits" this whole time!

 

[Azzy]

Not really more production costs, probably not going to increase the RPG market.

There's been 2 or 3 ME RPGs since the movies. Where are they now? They're not taking the RPG world by storm.

Even if the got movie rights they probably wouldnt have had the resources to get something out the door.

So you say. But if a ME game was put out by the makers of the most popular FRPG, it would have gained more interest. Moreso if it was compatible with D&D.

 

[Count_Zero]

Not really more production costs, probably not going to increase the RPG market.

There's been 2 or 3 ME RPGs since the movies. Where are they now? They're not taking the RPG world by storm.

Even if the got movie rights they probably wouldnt have had the resources to get something out the door.

The Decipher license was hamstrung by (IIRC) being limited to the material contained in the films and the first three books.

The Cubicle 7 license came around after most bookstores stopped carrying RPGs, which, if you want to improve visibility to expand the market (before the existence of RPG streams like Critical Role*), is big place where you want to stock your books. Alternatively, you want a beginner box that you can theoretically have stocked in Target (and can otherwise introduce new players to the game), but I don't think they have that either.

I don't know how the Tolkein license works behind the scenes at Cubicle 7, but if I was in charge of the line, I'd make sure we'd got the clearances with the Tolkein estate to have a beginner's box ready by the time the Amazon series comes out. And if that wasn't the option, I'd be looking to partner with someone like Geek and Sundry to have a future campaign of either The One Ring or Adventures in Middle Earth streaming on their service.

*Yes, I know we're all supposed to hate Critical Role because of all those damn noobs with high expectations that they lead to our D&D tables, but it and streams like it got a significant number of people to pick up D&D - and I suspect similar streams like Geek & Sundry's Star Trek and Vampire streams have helped those games as well.

 

[Zardnaar]

So you say. But if a ME game was put out by the makers of the most popular FRPG, it would have gained more interest. Moreso if it was compatible with D&D.

Then you're paying someone else money to compete with yourself.

It was bad enough with TSR competing with themselves with IP they did own.

Look at something like Star Wars a probably bigger candidate for an RPG.

It was never that big RPG wise compared with D&D. And it's a different genre as well.

At best it would have just been another setting if it was D&D compatible.

If WoTC a better run company can't do it with something like Star Wars I doubt TSR could do any better since by the time they could produce something 93 at best probably 94 or 95 they had passed the point of no return by then.

I'm going to go have a shower. Feels bad defending Lorraine Williams.

 

[Morrus]

There's been 2 or 3 ME RPGs since the movies. Where are they now? They're not taking the RPG world by storm.

Cubicle 7 is doing very well with TOR and AiME.

 

[Zardnaar]

Cubicle 7 is doing very well with TOR and AiME.

Compared to D&D?

See previous comment about the timing it was 1992. I don't think the licence was for 27 years and WoTC hasn't bothered getting the licence either.


The licence can totally work for another company. I doubt it would have saved TSR.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

I don’t really get the “competing with themselves” claims. I mean, yeah, I get that more product development means more production costs, but more product options also means more potential customers. Was White Wolf competing with themselves because they had Vampire, Werewolf, Mage, Wraith, and Changeling all out at the same time? If they had just stuck with Vampire everyone would have just bought that and they would have made more money due to having less work to do, right? No, because Werewolf appealed to people that Vampire didn’t, and the same for the other games. In order for it to hurt them financially it would have to fail to produce a net revenue from people buying that line of product that wouldn’t have bought the other line. There were a lot of options for games back then. You weren’t going to buy Forgotten Realms just because. Even today, when WotC is attempting to make as many of their products as they can appeal to as many people as they can, they have begun to expand that model. People (like me) who are unlikely to buy a FR mega-adventure set in the 5e era might snatch up Tales From the Yawning Portal and Ghosts of Saltmarsh because they provide more flexible adventures that are a length I prefer (as contrasted with their standard modern adventure lengths where it can either be played in one session, or takes a year and goes from levels 1-15).

I don’t know how a TSR produced Middle-Earth game would have done in the market, but I don’t see the “competing against themselves” aspect as a given—that only results in certain specific circumstances.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Cubicle 7 is doing very well with TOR and AiME.

Since AiME used 5e rules, we know what middle earth and DnD being married looks like. And while AiME is a great book, you don’t see people playing it in conventions, flgs, or live streaming like we see with core DND. I had a horrible time trying to find players here in Portland to play it.

So....point being, if all they got were the rights for an RPG, it very well could not have been worth it. Especially considering the time period. Everyone was playing Cthulhu and Vampire. Iron Crown went bankrupt in 1999 as well after struggling, and they had the license

 

[Zardnaar]

I don’t really get the “competing with themselves” claims. I mean, yeah, I get that more product development means more production costs, but more product options also means more potential customers. Was White Wolf competing with themselves because they had Vampire, Werewolf, Mage, Wraith, and Changeling all out at the same time? If they had just stuck with Vampire everyone would have just bought that and they would have made more money due to having less work to do, right? No, because Werewolf appealed to people that Vampire didn’t, and the same for the other games. In order for it to hurt them financially it would have to fail to produce a net revenue from people buying that line of product that wouldn’t have bought the other line. There were a lot of options for games back then. You weren’t going to buy Forgotten Realms just because. Even today, when WotC is attempting to make as many of their products as they can appeal to as many people as they can, they have begun to expand that model. People (like me) who are unlikely to buy a FR mega-adventure set in the 5e era might snatch up Tales From the Yawning Portal and Ghosts of Saltmarsh because they provide more flexible adventures that are a length I prefer (as contrasted with their standard modern adventure lengths where it can either be played in one session, or takes a year and goes from levels 1-15).

I don’t know how a TSR produced Middle-Earth game would have done in the market, but I don’t see the “competing against themselves” aspect as a given—that only results in certain specific circumstances.

White Wolf splitting the product lines didn't help from what I have read.

IDK TSRs finances in 1992.

Assume they got the licence, and they put out something in 1994.

It's unlikely it's going to be a massive hit. It's worth something obviously. TSR was in the hole for something like $27 million in1996 adjust for inflation it's alot.

So TSR still goes under, production ceases. WoTC cancelled all lines that weren't D&D/FR. Once they sort out TSR they start working on 3E so they need to redesign their game or support obsolete rules with the d20 boom around the corner.

And if they had a 10 year licence they would have around 2 years 2000-2002 to do anything with it.

The timing was completely wrong.

 

[Count_Zero]

Compared to D&D?

See previous comment about the timing it was 1992. I don't think the licence was for 27 years and WoTC hasn't bothered getting the licence either.

That's kind of an unreasonable comparison - that's equivalent to saying that your online first person shooter is not succeeding and can never be successful because it's not doing as well as Fortnite.