D&D 5E What non-combat abilities should fighters have?

[Gonat]

I'm greatly convinced that the fighter need something out of combat, and that subclasses are the place for it.
But, while talking of old editions, do not forget a really powerful feature that they had and was stripped (apart from barony). They where the masters of Saving Throws. A high level fighter was really hard to put down with effect spells (and they where save or suck, so it was a really powerful feature).
Indomitable do not even began to compare because casters spells and monsters skills can target any one of the six stats. Re-rolling a DC 16+ save where you have a -1 (but even if it was a +2) is not that awesome.
Maybe something similar to 'Diamond Soul' it would not be bad as a basic class feature.

Edit: Or maybe rewrite Indomitable like a legendary save? Automatic but limited in uses?

 

[CM]

Not having read the entire thread...

Provide more feats with a nice swath of common-themed non-combat abilities (I know, I know, not all games use feats).

 

[Tony Vargas]

I'm greatly convinced that the fighter need something out of combat, and that subclasses are the place for it.
But, while talking of old editions, do not forget a really powerful feature that they had and was stripped (apart from barony). They where the masters of Saving Throws. A high level fighter was really hard to put down with effect spells (and they where save or suck, so it was a really powerful feature).

I have been the lack since 3.0, yeah. ;(

Indomitable do not even began to compare because casters spells and monsters skills can target any one of the six stats. Re-rolling a DC 16+ save where you have a -1 (but even if it was a +2) is not that awesome.
Maybe something similar to 'Diamond Soul' it would not be bad as a basic class feature.

Edit: Or maybe rewrite Indomitable like a legendary save? Automatic but limited in uses?

Wouldn't be too over the top.

This is another thing were 'but... but.... Feats!' comes up. OK, fine. One of two bonus feats go to shoring up Social. One of two bonus feats goes to shoring up Exploration. One of the two bonus feats goes to WIS saves, so all fighters aren't cowards... and take a pair of UA 'Expertise-type' feats... and... and...

What, out of bonus feats? Only at 14th level? But we still have to max STR/DEX 2 levels early. And get GWM + PM at 6th!

:sigh:

Provide more feats with a nice swath of common-themed non-combat abilities (I know, I know, not all games use feats).

One possibility for DMs not wanting to use feats, but wanting to toss the fighter a bone, would be to let the two bonus ASI (only) be used for feats. Essentially, then, feats become a fighter feature.

 

[Quickleaf]

I'm greatly convinced that the fighter need something out of combat, and that subclasses are the place for it.
But, while talking of old editions, do not forget a really powerful feature that they had and was stripped (apart from barony). They where the masters of Saving Throws. A high level fighter was really hard to put down with effect spells (and they where save or suck, so it was a really powerful feature).
Indomitable do not even began to compare because casters spells and monsters skills can target any one of the six stats. Re-rolling a DC 16+ save where you have a -1 (but even if it was a +2) is not that awesome.
Maybe something similar to 'Diamond Soul' it would not be bad as a basic class feature.

Edit: Or maybe rewrite Indomitable like a legendary save? Automatic but limited in uses?

I've heard people assert that fighters had better saving throws in OD&D and AD&D, and I seem to remember that being the case, but is it actually true? I went back and looked, and really it seems like AD&D is where the idea of the fighter being the best at saves became a "thing", but even in AD&D it wasn't something the fighter started with but gradually gained as they leveled up past a certain threshold.

Here's what I dug up...

Based on what I've read it doesn't seem to be true for OD&D, where fighters and clerics seems pretty evenly matched in terms of saving throws, and there's lots of variation according to specific saving throw (e.g. fighters start the worst at save vs. Spells, but then become the best later on).

In AD&D 1st edition, a 1st-level character had the following saving throws (success was rolling the target number or higher):

1st-level Fighter paralyze/poison/death 14 (35%) petrify/polymorph 15 (30%) rod/staff/wand 16 (25%) breath 17 (20%) spell 17 (20%) => avg. success 26%
1st-level Cleric paralyze/poison/death 10 (55%) petrify/polymorph 13 (40%) rod/staff/wand 14 (35%) breath 16 (25%) spell 15 (30%) => avg. success 37%
1st-level Magic-User paralyze/poison/death 14 (35%) petrify/polymorph 13 (40%) rod/staff/wand 11 (50%) breath 15 (30%) spell 12 (45%) => avg. success 40%
1st-level Thief paralyze/poison/death 13 (40%) petrify/polymorph 12 (45%) rod/staff/wand 14 (35%) breath 16 (25%) spell 15 (30%) => avg. success 35%

So 1st-level fighters were actually behind other classes in terms of saving throws by -10% to -15% (-2 or -3 on a d20). What about at 17th level? Let's find out:

17th-level Fighter paralyze/poison/death 3 (90%) petrify/polymorph 4 (85%) rod/staff/wand 5 (80%) breath 4 (85%) spell 6 (75%) => avg. success 83%
17th-level Cleric paralyze/poison/death 4 (85%) petrify/polymorph 7 (70%) rod/staff/wand 8 (65%) breath 10 (55%) spell 9 (60%) => avg. success 67%
17th-level Magic-User paralyze/poison/death 10 (55%) petrify/polymorph 7 (40%) rod/staff/wand 5 (80%) breath 9 (55%) spell 6 (75%) => avg. success 61%
17th-level Thief paralyze/poison/death 9 (55%) petrify/polymorph 8 (65%) rod/staff/wand 6 (75%) breath 12 (45%) spell 7 (70%) => avg. success 62%

So fighters eventually surpass the other classes' saving throws by +15% to +20% (+3 to +4 on a d20). Looking at the chart, it seems like around 5th-6th level the AD&D 1e fighter is about tied with the other classes and just beginning to surpass their saving throws.

However, one thing to consider is that if the game kept going to 21st level, well, fighters saves already topped out at 17th level, and the other three classes got further improvements:

21st-level Fighter (same as 17th) paralyze/poison/death 3 (90%) petrify/polymorph 4 (85%) rod/staff/wand 5 (80%) breath 4 (85%) spell 6 (75%) => avg. success 83%
21st-level Cleric paralyze/poison/death 2 (95%) petrify/polymorph 5 (80%) rod/staff/wand 6 (75%) breath 8 (65%) spell 7 (70%) => avg. success 77%
21st-level Magic-User paralyze/poison/death 8 (65%) petrify/polymorph 5 (80%) rod/staff/wand 3 (90%) breath 7 (70%) spell 4 (85%) => avg. success 78%
21st-level Thief paralyze/poison/death 8 (65%) petrify/polymorph 7 (70%) rod/staff/wand 4 (85%) breath 11 (50%) spell 5 (80%) => avg. success 70%

Here we see the fighter's advantage diminish to +5% (+1 on a d20), or +13% in the case of thieves (+2 or +3 on a d20).

What this demonstrates is that the AD&D 1e fighter didn't start as having the best saves (quite the contrary!), but by maybe 7th level gained an edge over other classes in their saves, and the edge grew until the epic tier of play when it diminished to just a slight advantage.

 

[Nagol]

Though Fighters hit their best saving throws at 2.5 million xp and the next best (Magic-users) take 4.5 million xp to catch up.

Those percentages also don't take items into account. There are a fair number of saving throw boost items including magic armor versus most forms of potential damage (see DMG pg.81 for a list of types). It wasn't unusual for a high-level Fighter (11ish) to require a 2 to save vs most damage types and potentially require a 2 to save against all categories if the character was lucky/strategic with treasure picks.

 

[CM]

One possibility for DMs not wanting to use feats, but wanting to toss the fighter a bone, would be to let the two bonus ASI (only) be used for feats. Essentially, then, feats become a fighter feature.

Let them trade an ASI for a second background.

Then your character can be both a gentleman and a scholar.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

[MENTION=17343]Tony_V[/MENTION]argas
In 3.x you just have to make clear that you are using DCs from 10 to 25 mainly and it is encouraged to take 10 and 20 and spreading skillpoints over more skills.

In 5e I indeed think as a player that maybe gaining just +4 over 19 levels and no extra proficiencies by default was a bit too careful.
I would have appreciated a little more granular system and downtime allowing you to gain skills and maybe even expertise. Combat advancement is good enough in my opinion.

For skills i wished that expertise, normal and half avancement were available for every class and rogues and bards get a different ability than expertise. Reliable talent earlier would be a possibility. Maybe scaling from at least 5 in trained skills to maybe 10 in trained skills for the rogue and for the bard 5 in every skill ir so. Maybe something completely different. Maybe just sone extra skill proficiencies.

 

[Tony Vargas]

[MENTION=17343]Tony_V[/MENTION]argas
In 3.x you just have to make clear that you are using DCs from 10 to 25 mainly and it is encouraged to take 10 and 20 and spreading skillpoints over more skills..

Nod. Player restraint - DM brinksmanship - could get a campaign past the worst excesses of 3.x ... I had the pleasure of being in one group, mostly like that. But, out into the broader community, you'd likely get a lot of 24s, and the moment you broke your soft cap, the gloves'd be off. On line, all you'd hear is that's not 'RAW' - ::

I so don't miss that.

For skills i wished that expertise, normal and half avancement were available for every class and rogues and bards get a different ability than expertise.

Half advancement wouldn't mean much under BA, and I suspect expertise would become the standard.

:shrug: Skills are far from the most problematic thing in 5e...

 

[Eubani]

oops wrong thread

 

[Quickleaf]

Though Fighters hit their best saving throws at 2.5 million xp and the next best (Magic-users) take 4.5 million xp to catch up.

Those percentages also don't take items into account. There are a fair number of saving throw boost items including magic armor versus most forms of potential damage (see DMG pg.81 for a list of types). It wasn't unusual for a high-level Fighter (11ish) to require a 2 to save vs most damage types and potentially require a 2 to save against all categories if the character was lucky/strategic with treasure picks.

Good point. However, it's clear that fighters didn't have the best XP progression, being beaten out by clerics & thieves: http://www.sisterworlds.com/olde/2e/xp.htm

Hmm, so what would be the math formula to account for variable XP progression so I could have a 1-to-1 comparison of saving throw progression of various classes in AD&D and BD&D?