D&D 5E What is REALLY wrong with the Wizard? (+)

[jgsugden]

Are you under the impression that D&D battles involve people actually taking turns to fight...? In the fiction itself?

Edit: I recognize that question can come off wrong; I'm not trying to make a dig, just trying to understand the perspective.

There is abstraction in the battle. However, the more dynamic, engaging and active the game is, the less obvious the abstraction is. And, the less obvious the abstraction, the easier it is to engage.

Think of it this way: I know people are not really fighting when I watch an action movie. They're just acting. But, in a good movie, we forget that for a moment because we're drawn into the action. We suspend disbelief.

With a dynamic, interesting and evocative system we have an easier time being drawn into the fiction in an RPG, too. The more we can evoke a good action / fantasy / whatever movie within the ruleset and options, the better the experience is likely to be.

Compare the fast pace gun play of modern action movies to the older westerns where you see one side shoot, then hide, then the other side come out of hiding, shoot, then hide ... back and forth. Which is more exciting?

We use the word dynamic often when describing things that are interesting. It means something that causes change - and what I am calling out is that it is more interesting to have wizards interact and change the magics others are using against them than to have them do their thing and then wait for their enemy to take their turn to respond.

Wizards of myth and fantasy can typically do everything. But an individual wizard typically lacks access to them. There are few fantasies and mythology were a wizard has high access into all elements of magic.

There are plenty of examples of fictional spellcasters that can do insanely amazing things - but have a few limitations. Dr. Strange, Dr. Fate, Dr. Doom, Dr. Detroit (ohh ohh) ... They have the comic book grab bag of 'anything I need except the few things that have been ruled out. What can't the most educated of Harry Potter Wizards not do?

Regardless, WotC wizards can do almost anything with their magic. This isn't about what they can and can't do overall - it is about the methods in which they do it. Making the method of use more dynamic and interesting by making it interactive with the actions of others gives us a better action feel.

 

[Minigiant]

The loss of opposition schools resulted in a loss of identity for an individual wizard to make them stand out from their peers.

This

So much of the wizard's identity became tied to its versatility once opposing schools were removed, schools copying other schools were normalized, and wizards got more control of their spell research.

Once wizards had access to everything, you were encouraged to have a little bit of everything, Flavor dropped your power. The power of the wizard became the versatility and being samey. This evolved the 5e wizard were customization and flavor of a wizard is choosing which fire spell you have and which levels. The 5e wizard is so versatile it can't even modify its spells with metamagic by default anymore.

 

[Minigiant]

There are plenty of examples of fictional spellcasters that can do insanely amazing things - but have a few limitations. Dr. Strange,

Dr Strange had to take one a special title which enforces a responsibility.

Dr. Fate

He's bonded to a being that casts most of the more powerful spells. Without the helmet, Dr Fate can't do many types of spells.

What can't the most educated of Harry Potter Wizards not do?

Most of the powerful spells. Barring the magics taught in most schools, they don't have much of a range unless of special birth, circumstances, or personality.

 

[ECMO3]

You think a trained human in our world can't occasionally push themselves to act slightly faster in a 6-10 second span?

No not like a 5e fighter can. Like I mention the world record to fire 10 arrows is 40 seconds. That is 4 seconds per arrow for a short span and it is "ramped up".

A 5th level fighter can beat that by quite a bit firing arrows all day long at 3 seconds per arrow and can ramp that up to 1.5 seconds per arrow for a short 6-second burst. A 20th level fighter can destroy that firing 24 arrows in 18 seconds before "slowing down" to 1.5 arrows a second until he runs out.

That is with a bow, use a crossbow and it is even a bigger disparity. A heavy crossbow takes about 70 seconds to fire with the crossbow braced on the ground and being cranked most of that time. A basic 1st level fighter can fire off a bolt every 6 seconds, while also walking 30 feet .... if you use your 6th level extra feat (which no other class gets) for crossbow expert you can match the times above for a bow. That is unreal.

Fighters trained in athletics barely match real world athletes. It feels like a class as envisioned by someone who can't imagine anything beyond being the toughest guy at the bowling alley. They're so pathetically basic.

They are not athletes, they are "fighters". That said using the default rules a fighter with a 20 strength can long jump 20 feet, high jump 9 feet and run faster than a 9-minute mile while carrying 300lbs of gear. I do not think there is anyone alive that can do that.

A fighter with a 6 strength can run a 9-minute mile while carrying 90lbs of gear. People that can do that are few and far between.

More to the point though I think we need to keep this focused on weapons and fighting. a 1st level fighter will generally survive being stabbed by a dagger 3 times. A 10th level fighter can be stabbed by a dagger an astounding 20 times and be expected to survive. That is with a 10 constitution, give him a 16 and he can up that to 30. That is with an actual dagger, not a kitchen knife! He will take 20 arrows and usually still be walking around.

To me, that's the biggest problem with wizards. They'd be fine as is if adventuring with mythic characters like Hercules or anime martial heroes like Guts from Berserk. But they aren't. Either lower the breadth of their power, or raise others up.

They are like Hercules.

Moreover it is easier to build a fighter that is good with all weapons than it is any other class. You can very eaily build a fighter that transitions from a Greatsword to a Longbow to a pair of Shortswords and does all of them very well. You can't do that with other classes as easily and I would argue that is the fighters schtick.

 

[Vaalingrade]

It is a fair cop that comic book wizards work on Lazy Writing Magic where they just pull effects out of their bums like D&D Wizards do.

This is not a point in the D&D Wizard's favor.

 

[Incenjucar]

On the other hand, a real world person can kill a target bigger than a mouse with a single arrow.

 

[ECMO3]

But the wizard still has access. Because the wizard has access to strong abjuration stronger conjuration strong divination strong evocation etc you can do anything with the class nor dive into new ideas.

With the class yes. With the individual Wizard PC no. You have to choose what you want to be good at because you only have 4 spells per spell level after 1st level.

You have to choose the 4 spells you want - take 3rd level spells for example, there are strong necromancy (animate dead), conjuration (numerous), illusion (fear), Evocation (Lemunds Tiny Hut, Fireball), Transmutation (slow, haste), Divination (tongues), Enchantment (Enemies Abound) and abjuration (counterspell).

But you only get 4 of them. Your Wizard picks Lemunds Hut, Haste, Counterspell and Fear. Those are his spells, and they are powerful spells. But that is all he can ever cast of 3rd level unless the DM makes more spells available along with time and gold or unless he takes another 3rd level spell by sacrificing a spell of 4th-9th level (which is even worse). He never will be able to use Tongues for example, he will never be able to cast a fireball or a lightning bolt or Dispel Magic. Take any of those spells and he has to give up on the spells he did take.

Compare this to the cleric:
The cleric has better Necromancy (Revify), Enchantment (Incite Greed) and Conjuration (Spirit Guardians) options available at 3rd level to start with, has roughly equivalent Evocation (Sending, Aura of vitality) and Divination (Tongues) options and worse Abjuration and Transmutation options.

But the cleric can change on a daily basis. Walk into a town where no one speaks the language and the Cleric can be conversing in 8 hours. Find out the guy who was murdered is down in the morgue, rest and then go talk to his corpse. The dead guy tells you the bar tender killed him. Go talk to the bar tender and find out she is enspelled by someone, after a rest come back and dispel it. She tells you where the BBEG's hideout is and points out that you have to cross a Lava moat to lower the drawbridge. Take a long rest, get your combat load with Revify and Spirit Guardians and pick up protection from elements which you rarely prepare so your Rogue can make it across the moat ..... then go attack the hideout.

In addition to being able to flex like this the cleric has more prepared spells because he gets 2 more subclass spells prepared per level.

But the D&D wizard lacks that. You cannot plan around the wizard not being good at anything or having anything. It just becomes a lottery of whether an individual wizard has or doesn't have any style of effect. There is no theme to see. A blasted wizard can prepare charms and summons. An illusionist can have some death magic one day and alchemy the next

This is the PC choice though. Because your spells are so limited you absolutely can specialize and you can do it regardless of your school. Suggesting that allowing PCs to be a generalist is bad is wrong. I will add this is not unique to the Wizard, you can be a generalist fighter, good at both melee and ranged pretty easily and you can have a fighter that has both a high strength and high dex easily as well.

When I play a Wizard I typically specialize in Abjuration and affects that cause the frightened condition (which are mostly a combination of necromancy and illusion). That is not to say I don't have other spells, but my Wizards do have a theme and they are usually creepy to make that theme even better.

I have also played a multiclass Wizard-Cleric that specialized in Enchantment. He had a few rituals, but just about every wizard spell he had was an enchantment spell. He did this because he was an order cleric and could cast them as a bonus action.

 

[FrogReaver]

On the other hand, a real world person can kill a target bigger than a mouse with a single arrow.

Real World Archers are all Rogues!

 

[Minigiant]

With the class yes. With the individual Wizard PC no. You have to choose what you want to be good at because you only have 4 spells per spell level after 1st level.

You have to choose the 4 spells you want - take 3rd level spells for example, there are strong necromancy (animate dead), conjuration (numerous), illusion (fear), Evocation (Lemunds Tiny Hut, Fireball), Transmutation (slow, haste), Divination (tongues), Enchantment (Enemies Abound) and abjuration (counterspell).

A wizard can only cast 4 a day. A Wizard can have all of them in their spell book.

That the difference.

The Cleric won't have high damage evocations unless his domain grants them. And by taking a domain that grants them, he loses the ability to ever get strong summon options or illusion options. He can switch his spells all he wants but the cleric spell list doesn't have access to them and he only gets one domain choice.

The wizard has access to all of them in their list. The only things a wizard can't do is heal and resurrect. Sure the wizard only has 2 guranteed picks per level but they are the only class that can collect spells.

That tells you something. Can is the cleric and druid allowed to switch accross their whole spell list daily. But the wizard only get 2 pcks a level and only swap what he/she/they find? Because the cleric and druid spell list has massive holes. The wizard spell list has only 2 small holes so the designers have to artificially hope the DM creates extra holes by not leaving too many spells as treasure.

It's literally bad game design. Almost no game does "Great all Everything but you can only pick X each day". They learned that never works back in the 80s.and 90s. But D&D is older than that. And by the time we learned this, the cmmunity was used to the ultra versatile wizard.

 

[Minigiant]

This is the PC choice though. Because your spells are so limited you absolutely can specialize and you can do it regardless of your school. Suggesting that allowing PCs to be a generalist is bad is wrong. I will add this is not unique to the Wizard, you can be a generalist fighter, good at both melee and ranged pretty easily and you can have a fighter that has both a high strength and high dex easily as well.

No it'sa DM choice.

The fighter can't heal, buff, debuff, AOE, do illusions, transform, summon. create,
The wizard can. It's only up to the DM to not give them all as treasure. And even it they don't, the wizard can spread them out accross multiple levels. You are even encouraged to put you attack and control spells in you higher slot and you noncombat stuff in lower slots.