D&D General What is Good for D&D ... is Good for the RPG Hobby- Thoughts?

[overgeeked]

That could be, but I am more interested in what one can do in the bubble.

Thank you for proving my point.

I am an architect, I deal with building codes and physics. I am inclined to be more interested in what one can do within constraints than what one can do without them. How far can we push that cantilevered floor and such.

What makes you think other games have no constraints? That's such an odd take.

 

[dave2008]

Thank you for proving my point.

Glad to help!

What makes you think other games have no constraints? That's such an odd take.

Odd for you, not for me. People are different. I don't feel like going into a length justification of my thought process for little to no pay off. I doubt either of us would get anything from it.

Really I am trying to extract myself from these conversations and get back to enjoying my game.

 

[overgeeked]

Right, but whats the barrier to entry on those outside the bubble, vs within it?

The barrier to entry for most games is free time, cost, availability of players, referees, and games to play in.

Thanks to the dominance of D&D and the network effect, the barrier to entry for D&D is quite low on those last three and conversely quite high on those same last three for every other game. But then, that was entirely the point of the OGL. To get the industry as a whole to focus its energy at lifting up D&D. It worked, unfortunately. Now there's effectively no RPG industry to speak of outside of D&D.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

The main barrier seems to be the Sunk Cost Fallacy and the prejudice that learning other systems takes anywhere as long to learn as D&D.

Yup. Ironically by being the first system people learn, D&D effectively raises the barrier to other systems, because people perceive it as being hard to learn (even though the bit you need to just basically get playing is pretty accessible - I've played plenty of boardgames that required me to know more), because as all the rules pile on, and they see the three books and so on, it looks like a lot.

Whereas in practice the vast majority of other RPGs have a total system learning time which is far lower.

Odd for you, not for me. People are different. I don't feel like going into a length justification of my thought process for little to no pay off. I doubt either of us would get anything from it.

No, it's just odd. It's not different. It's a nonsensical point that illustrates a fundamental misunderstanding or profound ignorance re: non-D&D game systems, I'm sorry dave. You've got plenty of valid opinions but this one is just incomprehensible. Perhaps because you're explaining it in a hurry to get away, but it's just not a reasonable/valid opinion as presented.

 

[overgeeked]

Really I am trying to extract myself from these conversations and get back to enjoying my game.

Me too. I just don't get to enjoy my game because people aren't interested in playing it because it's not 5E. So cool for you, sucks for me. I guess I can either shuffle off out of the hobby or get on the bland train. No gaming is better than bad gaming, I suppose.

 

[Scribe]

The barrier to entry for most games is free time, cost, availability of players, referees, and games to play in.

Thanks to the dominance of D&D and the network effect, the barrier to entry for D&D is quite low on those last three and conversely quite high on those same last three. But then, that was entirely the point of the OGL. To get the industry as a whole to focus its energy at lifting up D&D. It worked, unfortunately. Now there's effectively no RPG industry to speak of outside of D&D.

Thats the barrier to any activity, yes. Free time, cost, others to participate in the activity (players and dms) and the existence of the activity.

The issue you dont seem to be addressing, is also (checking) the PF2 core book, is over 600 pages.

Why would one want to come to grips with that, instead of just sticking it out with a 5e rule set that is now free from Wizbro control?

Thats the underlying issue here, that leads to system dominance, 3PP engagement, and a path to expansion, instead of reinvention.

 

[TheSword]

The barrier to entry for most games is free time, cost, availability of players, referees, and games to play in.

Thanks to the dominance of D&D and the network effect, the barrier to entry for D&D is quite low on those last three and conversely quite high on those same last three. But then, that was entirely the point of the OGL. To get the industry as a whole to focus its energy at lifting up D&D. It worked, unfortunately. Now there's effectively no RPG industry to speak of outside of D&D.

The barrier to entry isn’t any higher for those other games. It was already high. Hence me being an rpg player from 30 years and having never played those games. Mainly because a lack of access routes to the game.

The barrier to 5e is so low it’s negligable and we’re seeing a huge influx of players into the market. Millions of players. Some of those new players, a sliver of a slice, are going to try out Call of Cthulhu or attend a Vampire event as they come into contact with the overlap of the 5e community that are interested in both.

It will be more players than they ever had before. You’re also forgetting there is a host, a multitude of camp followers providing services for all rpgs (maps, tokens, dice, artists, VTT’s etc) system agnostic products that are profitable and invested in because of the size of the market. Their presence improves the quality and production values of all products for all systems.

 

[Aldarc]

The issue you dont seem to be addressing, is also (checking) the PF2 core book, is over 600 pages.

Ah, yes. I forgot that Pathfinder 2 is the entirety of non-D&D games out there as well as being the sort of game that @overgeeked raves about.

 

[overgeeked]

Thats the barrier to any activity, yes. Free time, cost, others to participate in the activity (players and dms) and the existence of the activity.

The issue you dont seem to be addressing, is also (checking) the PF2 core book, is over 600 pages.

That's part of free time and cost. The cost of the book itself in dollars. The cost in free time to read over and understand the book well enough to play the game. Notably, there are other games than just 5E and PF2E. So it's a false dichotomy to put those two together as if they were the only options. There's a whole galaxy of games out there that are significantly lighter than both 5E and PF2E.

Why would one want to come to grips with that, instead of just sticking it out with a 5e rule set that is now free from Wizbro control?

One, because it's not free of Wizbro's control. Two, because playing 5E directly supports Wizbro. And three, no one has to come to grips with that. They can try lighter games. They do exist.

Thats the underlying issue here, that leads to system dominance, 3PP engagement, and a path to expansion, instead of reinvention.

I think you have it backwards. The OGL lead to system dominance to this extreme because 3PP could just support D&D instead of creating something new. It's literally the network effect. So the industry almost as a whole directs their efforts to supporting D&D. Even those few who's main drive and passion is other games...they still have to produce 5E content because they need the money to keep the lights on and the paychecks from bouncing.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

The issue you dont seem to be addressing, is also (checking) the PF2 core book, is over 600 pages.

It's a fake issue.

By that logic D&D is also 600 pages, because the PF2 core is the equivalent of the PHB and DMG combined (possibly also the MM but I don't think so).

So why would that issue need to be addressed?

The basic rules you need to learn to get playing are highly comparable to 5E. If you can handle 5E, you can handle PF2. It's also a laughably bad example because it's one of like two games slightly more complex than D&D 5E.