Pathfinder 2E What does Pathfinder lack?

[MichaelSomething]

Are you picturing this used by a PC? Because there's extensive discussion in the DMG as to how to put together common NPCs, and more than one of the backgrounds is set up if you want to have that sort of background (my first PF2e character was the son of a stonemason and had some things to show that from his background).

Use for PCs is nice; but the real value is in increasing the world building and immersion for DMs!

 

[Thomas Shey]

Use for PCs is nice; but the real value is in increasing the world building and immersion for DMs!

Yeah, but PF2e is not one of those games that does things for NPCs with classes for the most part. That's just as true of NPC warriors, priests and mages.

 

[Staffan]

This is a pretty esoteric complaint that I increasingly believe no one but me cares about, but objective DCs. I need the book to write down, without reference to a level scaling or generic difficulty table, the difficult of every task a PC will attempt to accomplish.

Step 1: Look at every skill that has a difficulty table listing various tasks as Untrained, Trained, Expert, Master, or Legendary checks. E.g. the Climb action under Athletics has a table saying:

Untrained ladder, steep slope, low-branched tree
Trained rigging, rope, typical tree
Expert wall with small handholds and footholds
Master ceiling with handholds and footholds, rock wall
Legendary smooth surface

Step 2: Replace all references in these tables with 10 for Untrained, 15 for Trained, 20 for Expert, 30 for Master, and 40 for Legendary.

Pathfinder 2 does have objective DCs. Adventures should probably use those more, and I think there are quite a few places in the rules that should use these instead of level-based DCs (e.g. monster knowledge rolls), but they certainly exist.

 

[Pedantic]

Step 1: Look at every skill that has a difficulty table listing various tasks as Untrained, Trained, Expert, Master, or Legendary checks. E.g. the Climb action under Athletics has a table saying:

Step 2: Replace all references in these tables with 10 for Untrained, 15 for Trained, 20 for Expert, 30 for Master, and 40 for Legendary.

Pathfinder 2 does have objective DCs. Adventures should probably use those more, and I think there are quite a few places in the rules that should use these instead of level-based DCs (e.g. monster knowledge rolls), but they certainly exist.

That's not quite the point. I want the game to write down DCs, as a player facing mechanism, with the intent PCs will use them to do things. Ideally, I'd like the game to stop presenting skill checks as "challenges" and instead present skills as a list of player abilities that are gated behind rolls/level scaling to use regularly.

 

[Staffan]

That's not quite the point. I want the game to write down DCs, as a player facing mechanism, with the intent PCs will use them to do things. Ideally, I'd like the game to stop presenting skill checks as "challenges" and instead present skills as a list of player abilities that are gated behind rolls/level scaling to use regularly.

Hmm. The skills in Pathfinder 2 seem very player-facing to me. Each skill has some general stuff about what it's for, and then goes into detail providing specific things you can do. They even use player-facing language ("You move up, down, or across an incline." – emphasis mine). It's pretty rare to provide an actual DC, but the UTEML descriptors serve the same purpose while also providing some examples of what you can expect at certain proficiency levels.

I mean, here's how the Athletics skill is structured:

Spoiler: PF2 Athletics skill

Athletics (Str)

• Short description, including letting you use it for the basic action Escape.
• Table presenting typical climb/swim speeds based on your regular speed.
• Description of the Leap action (mostly as a contrast to the Jump actions coming later).
• Some reminders on forced movement.
• A list of actions that use Athletics and can be done untrained:
  • Climb, including that it takes one action, has the Move trait, and requires both hands.
    • A description of what the Climb action does.
    • The results of a critical success, a success, or a critical failure on a Climb check.
    • A list of sample Climb tasks and what proficiency level/DC they are associated with.
  • Force Open, including that it takes one action and has the Attack trait.
    • A description of what it does.
    • The results of a critical success, a success, or a critical failure on a Force Open check.
    • A list of sample things you might want to Force Open and what proficiency level/DC they are associated with.
  • Grapple, including that it takes one action, has the Attack trait, and some requirements.
    • A description of what a Grapple check does and that you use it against an opponent's Fortitude DC.
    • The results of all four different degrees of success on a Grapple check.
  • High Jump, including that it takes two actions.
    • Description of what a High Jump does (Stride once, then Leap, and make a DC 30 Athletics check to increase your max height)
    • The results of all four different degrees of success on increasing your maximum Leap height.
  • Long Jump, including that it takes two actions.
    • Description of what a Long Jump is (basically similar to High Jump, except extending the length of your leap instead)
  • Shove, including that it takes one action, has the Attack trait, and requires a hand free and a target that's not too big.
    • A description of what a Shove check does and that you use it against an opponent's Fortitude DC.
    • The results of a critical success, a success, or a critical failure on a Shove check.
  • Swim, including that it takes one action, and has the Move trait.
    • A description of what the Swim action does, including mention that you only need to roll in dangerous circumstances.
    • The results of a critical success, a success, or a critical failure on a Swim check.
    • A list of sample Swim tasks and what proficiency level/DC they are associated with.
  • Trip, including that it takes one action, has the Attack trait, and requires a hand free and a target that's not too big.
    • A description of what a Trip check does and that you use it against an opponent's Reflex DC.
    • The results of a critical success, a success, or a critical failure on a Trip check.
• One action available to characters with trained or better proficiency in Athletics:
  • Disarm, including that it takes one action, has the Attack trait, and requires a hand free and a target that's not too big.
    • A description of what a Trip check does and that you use it against an opponent's Reflex DC.
    • The results of a critical success, a success, or a critical failure on a Trip check.

I don't really see how things can be much more straight-forward and player-facing than that, unless you think "Trained: rigging, rope, or typical tree" is significantly more obscure than "DC 15: climb rigging, rope, or a typical tree"

 

[doctorhook]

I love how tactical PF2 is, but sometimes I wish combat was deadlier and character creation was faster. But I might be crazy—an OSR-style version of PF2? It’s an impossible dream.

 

[payn]

I love how tactical PF2 is, but sometimes I wish combat was deadlier and character creation was faster. But I might be crazy—an OSR-style version of PF2? It’s an impossible dream.

I found it plenty deadly when facing a steady diet is severe/extreme encounters. Leveling is pretty easy in my experience, but I'm also a PF1 guy.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I really can't say I find character creation at all slow, but then, I come from a background that's heavily outside class systems, so the amount of decision making in PF2e seems quite mild to me.

 

[payn]

I really can't say I find character creation at all slow, but then, I come from a background that's heavily outside class systems, so the amount of decision making in PF2e seems quite mild to me.

At first glance the sheer number of feats looks daunting. Though, once you dig in you find they silo down to about 2-4 choices by level. Gone is the thousand entry level feats and hundreds of chains of yester PF.

 

[TheAlkaizer]

Advantage and Disadvantage would be undesirable in PF2E. It's a very convenient and simple mechanic (I really like it), but it removes granularity when it comes to narrative advantages and disadvantages. You either have advantage, disadvantage, or you don't. You might have an enchantment, your enemy is prone, you have high-ground, he's flanked, you still only have advantage.

PF2E is big on teamwork and creating the optimal conditions for characters to land hits and increase chances of critical hits. It's a bad match for the Advantage/Disadvantage mechanic.