D&D 3E/3.5 What do you ban? (3.5)

[JamesonCourage]

In fact, I'm going to go out on a limb - if you need to check someone's character sheet to make sure they're roleplaying "properly," they're not the one with the problem.

The moment I see "hill giant werewhale" or something similar, I can safely assume that roleplaying isn't his number one priority. It's obviously not powergaming, but it's most likely just playing a funny concept. While that is closer to roleplaying than it is to powergaming, it's neither, and shouldn't be confused with either. It's fun when you have a group who wants to play that type of game, but someone who wants to wield his beard as a weapon just isn't something that falls under roleplaying.

Just to be clear, I'm talking about the spirit of roleplaying, not the literal definition, which is very broad (and rightly so). Putting yourself in your characters shoes, playing through his faults and his strengths, embracing the essence of his being; that is the spirit of roleplaying. While many people will indeed playing a character that they find humorous, it usually goes against the spirit of roleplaying, in my opinion. Which, I should stress, is my opinion.

 

[Runestar]

The moment I see "hill giant werewhale" or something similar, I can safely assume that roleplaying isn't his number one priority. It's obviously not powergaming, but it's most likely just playing a funny concept.

I dunno, it seems kinda ... arrogant?!? (no offense, I just cannot think of a more apt term) to claim that there is only 1 way to roleplay. Apparently, we must use mundane race/class combinations that suit LoTR stereotypes just to show that we are serious in roleplaying?

I mean, I have seen play-by-post games where players ran 1-shot adventures involving celestials who journeyed deep into hell to find out the reason behind lolth's silence. They were weak (party consisted of a ghaele, astral deva, trumpet archon, sword archon, gold dragon and leonal), but it was just so darn cool! What wouldn't I give to be able to play in a group like that.

 

[Celebrim]

Celebrim, I do greatly enjoy the fact that you have reached the point of attacking the way Wyvernhand and I have been presenting our arguments, rather than creating an actual counterargument.

It is apparent that you are no longer open to rational discussion, so I will leave you to whatever emotional opinions you have.

This is called passive aggressively pretending to have the moral high ground. Instead of actually countering my arguments or presenting your own, you are going to talk about how much you've been insulted and how I'm not actually presenting counter-arguments.

But I doubt you are fooling very many people with that stance. I've not only countered your arguments, but I've countered the straw men that you've came up with as well. And that's a statement that unlike the one you just presented I can back with evidence from the thread. You accused me of dislikeing multiclassing (which I didn't say) because it was power-gaming. But that statement stood in direct contrast to things I'd said in this thread. When I asked you to produce quotes backing up your claim, you produced two quotes from a post where I'd talked about how 'gonzo' game stances could be every bit as dysfunctional as power gaming. Now, I wasn't even saying that all multiclassing was 'gonzo'. But I even more obviously wasn't saying that all multiclassing was power gaming, because what I was complaining about mostly was 'gonzo'.

About the only thing I agree with you on is that this conversation has gone way down hill. Instead of people wanting to talk about what is banned and why, those of us who have chosen to ban things are being forced to defend the decision to do so from people who have no actual interest in the topic except to say that "people who ban things are having badwrongfun".

And you have the temerity and lack of self-reflection to jump in here after saying that, "If you don't play D&D my way, you shouldn't play D&D at all.", to claim that I'm the one who is being beligerant. I'm not the one who started the whole, "That's not the right way to play." I've been the target of veiled insults, textual eye-rolling, and snark ever since I stated, "Well, I banned a lot of things as part of overhauling the game."

Since you are now so disgusted, can we have our topic back now?

 

[Celebrim]

I dunno, it seems kinda ... arrogant?!? (no offense, I just cannot think of a more apt term) to claim that there is only 1 way to roleplay. Apparently, we must use mundane race/class combinations that suit LoTR stereotypes just to show that we are serious in roleplaying?

Ok, that's a reasonable complaint. And no offence taken.

My problem with "hill giant were-orcas" and the like is that I think that if the character is sufficiently alien, it will be so difficult to relate to that I distrust the ability of someone to get in its head, empathize with it, and breathe life into the character. I equally distrust the ability of the character to create a story which me, as a mere human can relate to. Moreover, I distrust that, if a serious exploration was done of the character, that it would result in a social game and the less so if everyone was playing an equally alien being with equally alien mores and goals. Finally, I distrust that someone who comes up with a 'gonzo' idea for a character actually has primarily the intention of entertaining the other players at the table, rather than primarily entertaining themselves. In my past experience, an experience which is far from uncommon, players that reach for gonzo character ideas usually don't want to engauge in serious roleplay, disparage the very idea of it, and are very disruptive at the table.

I'm not completely unsympathetic with that. I used to play a lot of Gamma World in jr. high and high school. Gamma World just drips with gonzo camp, and if you don't play in a gonzo over the top way you aren't really getting the most out of the game IMO. But Gamma World, for all its fun, is anything but a serious exploration of a post-apocalyptic world with high literary goals.

I mean, I have seen play-by-post games where players ran 1-shot adventures...

Stop there for a moment. I have several times said in this thread that '1-shot adventures' were a wholly different matter than long running campaigns. What works for a campaign that runs to 60 4 hour sessions, doesn't necessarily work for a one shot that goes only 4 hours - and vica versa. I have no problem whatsoever with simplistic characters with wildly over the top tropes in most one shot games. I have little problem with gonzo for 4 hours. In that time frame, a one trick pony with a funny name and campy behavior might actually stay fresh and funny and leave the table rolling with laughter.

They were weak (party consisted of a ghaele, astral deva, trumpet archon, sword archon, gold dragon and leonal), but it was just so darn cool!

I'm glad you enjoyed it, but you and I have very different definitions of 'weak' and probably of 'cool'.

What wouldn't I give to be able to play in a group like that.

Maybe part of the problem here is that for you, this is all new and different, and for me its 'been there; done that'.

 

[JamesonCourage]

I dunno, it seems kinda ... arrogant?!? (no offense, I just cannot think of a more apt term) to claim that there is only 1 way to roleplay. Apparently, we must use mundane race/class combinations that suit LoTR stereotypes just to show that we are serious in roleplaying?

I mean, I have seen play-by-post games where players ran 1-shot adventures involving celestials who journeyed deep into hell to find out the reason behind lolth's silence. They were weak (party consisted of a ghaele, astral deva, trumpet archon, sword archon, gold dragon and leonal), but it was just so darn cool! What wouldn't I give to be able to play in a group like that.

No offense (and I really do mean that), but I think you might be extrapolating things I said rather incorrectly. I think we can both agree that there's a large difference between seeing "hill giant werewhale" or "dwarf named fistbeard beardfist who kills creatures with his mighty beard and has his own theme song most likely sang to the tune of darkwing duck" and a group of inherently pure, Good beings venturing their way into the bowels of Hell to investigate an Evil goddesses' plans, can't we?

I can judge the first two on conclude that they probably are much more interested in a funny character concept, which has its place, but as I said, this isn't really in line with the spirit of roleplaying. The latter would still give me pause, but as there's no inherent and intentionally humorous theme in the character build, I will hold off on judgment until I hear why they should be allowed to play the character.

The former I judge based solely on the character sheet, and rightly so. The latter I don't judge based solely on the character sheet. I do stand by what I said, and once again stress that it's my opinion.

I wouldn't allow the good outsiders or dragon in my game, but that's because it takes away from the mortal setting I find fosters roleplaying. That's purely my point of view, however, and I still do not ever conclude that someone who wants to play a demon (especially in my campaign world) does not intend to roleplay. I have just found it easier for people to relate to their characters (and thus roleplay a little more successfully) when using a more relatable character. I do think someone can easily roleplay an outsider, and quite successfully, but I don't think my entire group can. And I am loathe to give something to one member without extending the option to the others, just as I am loathe to give the players an option that the bad guys don't have, or give the bad guys an option that the good guys don't have. I'm only going more into detail here so you can see where I'm coming from. These are my personal gaming preferences when I'm running a game, and nothing more.. I am not saying this is how everyone should play.

 

[GreyLord]

Last thing: To whoever stated that 3 classes max for caracter building...why? What possibly does it serve? Does it REALLY make that much more work for you? Take a look at many PrCs...lots of them require 2 different base classes to get in, generally some combination of them to equal 5-6 levels. Then you tack on a 10 level PrC which combines some of the abilities. Then what. All of a sudden, you've come as far as you can with that concept, and you have to go back to doing one or the other of your base components? Or, maybe you enter a 2nd PrC (GASP!!!!) which is similar in theme and favor to the one you just finished, and ride that all the rest of the way out to 20? It seems that going back to one of the base classes is a bigger break in willing suspension of disbelief than taking a 4th, similarly themed PrC would make. After all, a character doesn't know what class levels he has, but he would know that he's not advancing certain aspects of his potential in a way that he was. Maybe its hitting a brick wall, maybe its just a needless roadblock that does NOTHING to increase or the depth of the character or the enjoyment of the player.

Let's put it this way, I can create a class that does 2000 points of damage per round, with all the different books I have access to. Some of them aren't by WotC, and some of them you might not have.

However, because I said so, you should just let me play that character.

Munchkin...of course not...let me see...

First he was part of the Rebel alliance, who then was shot forward a LONG TIME into the Future to a VERY FAR FAR away place where he joined into an evil empire where he tricked up into learning the elite secrets of archery...but then due to an unfortunate accident ended up on the Astral Plane and learned personal abilities from the Lord of Pain...and which point he upset the Lady of Trothes and agreements so I had to escape into the Abyss at which point I became part Demon and learned some evil pacts...and finally found a portal to the world where our party is and joined up...

Who am to care that you only have an 2 hours to prepare the campaign before hand...and 5 other players...DANG IT YOU NEED TO LOOK AT MINE. If you don't have enough time...WELL I'M MORE IMPORTANT!!!

Do you care that I'm going to be doing more damage then the entire party put together most likely?

Now I would have problems with this (except in my FR campaigns again...but they ARE munchkin campaigns) and the above thought process. I don't have time to go looking up your PrC if I don't want to...or multiple ones. Note...are they in the core books? NO? Okay...

You don't have to play in my campaign. In fact...none of you play in my campaign?

So why are you arguing about something none of my players have a problem with. You aren't my players.

Why do you want to dictate the way we do things?

People asked what I banned and why. I stated them. You don't like it, fine. Continue to play games the way you do...but don't try to tell us how we have to play or that we have to play like you either.

Oh, and if you really have a problem...perhaps don't play NWN (fine game) which also limits your MC numbers...and don't play in a Core Rules game only which you won't find a few of the PrC's you seem to want to allow with a certain build...

If I'm dm'ing, and that's my style...perhaps I'd rather be playing football, or baseball, or watching sports or even spending time with my family then looking up things?

OH...and if you hadn't caught it...I DO allow anything goes in certain campaigns...thank you very much...so perhaps I have reasons for my groups I play with the 3 class limit as to WHY I don't allow certain things and WHY I ban them...because they work for who I play with.

Perhaps you've never had to deal with players picking fights with each other because they feel someone is too munchkin...or arguing about why someone shouldn't be allowed to play at the table. I HAVE. There was ONE EASY CURE FOR IT. I'm not going to allow something like that to cause problems. The easiest cure was to limit to 3 classes and IT WORKS. Period. You have a problem with it...fine...I'm not stopping your game. Go play YOUR game and let us play ours.

However...If I ever game with you...and you are serious...I DO expect you to allow my build...regardless of how cheesy my backstory is...or how munchkin my character is...

you can check it right before we begin the game session to see what I can do...in the five minutes we have before we start playing.

 

[Dandu]

It's almost like you're cherry picking an example to prove your point using situations that are highly unlikely to occur in real life while portraying people who like to multiclass as disruptive asshats, hysterically using hyperbole in place of an actual argument.

I've been studying for the GRE.

 

[Aus_Snow]

My problem with "hill giant were-orcas" and the like is that I think that if the character is sufficiently alien, it will be so difficult to relate to that I distrust the ability of someone to get in its head, empathize with it, and breathe life into the character.

Your "distrust" notwithstanding, just because some are incapable of such a thing - or... you believe that to be so, anyway - does not mean that everyone is.

And yes, I am sure of this. From direct experience. It is not theory, or even "trust", by way of contrast. Simply fact.

It's also entirely true that if one is not open to a given thing being possible, the chances of perceiving said thing with any kind of clarity*, should it in fact occur, are... fairly low, let's just say.


* Or at all, in some cases.

 

[Wyvernhand]

Let's put it this way, I can create a class that does 2000 points of damage per round, with all the different books I have access to. Some of them aren't by WotC, and some of them you might not have.

However, because I said so, you should just let me play that character.

Munchkin...of course not...let me see...

And I can make a single class character who can ALSO deal 2000 points of damage per round. Big woopdee doo?

However...If I ever game with you...and you are serious...I DO expect you to allow my build...regardless of how cheesy my backstory is...or how munchkin my character is...

you can check it right before we begin the game session to see what I can do...in the five minutes we have before we start playing.

I have a ban list too...but its not arbirary. I ban things for balance, rather than "If the class description of your character takes up more space than the character has room for, you are a rediculous munchkin powergame asshat".

Thats my problem with it. Just like the multiclass penalties, it doesn't make sense. Elf Druid10/Ranger2 has a multiclass penalty, but Elf Druid2/Ranger2/Monk2/Fighter2/Wizard2/Cleric2 doesn't. Its so arbitrary. Similarly, Fighter2/Paladin2/Monk2/PiousTemplar10 is banned in your game for being "munchkiny", but Wizard20 or Druid20 is still perfectly valid.

Casters have SPELLS to customize their characters, to make them different, to make them versatile. They don't need PrCs. All the mundane's have are feats and class levels...you're shitting on the wrong guy, and to me, this makes no sense. Its arbitrarily punishing the group that needs the most help, mechanics-wise, while barely impacting most full casters.

I'm not saying you're wrong in doing it, but to me, it just seems to bafflingly self-defeating.

 

[Celebrim]

Your "distrust" notwithstanding, just because some are incapable of such a thing - or... you believe that to be so, anyway - does not mean that everyone is.

It is precisely because of that that I phrased it as carefully as I did. Maybe there is some one out there who can not only characterize the hill giant were-orca but absolutely needs the unique attributes of the hill giant were-orca to fully bring out the character he or she has imagined. (Hereafter, keep in mind that by "hill giant were-orca" I mean some arbitrarily alien character, and not merely a tall cetacian loving brute with lunar controlled cycle.)

Such a person IMO would have a pretty unique combination of imagination, knowledge, and acting ability, given that in my experience probably only 1 player in 4 is actually capable of playing any other character but themselves and in typical groups that player has taken up the mantle of Game Master and uses the talent to run memorable NPC's. The vast majority of people can't even play a character whose ethical beliefs or social background markedly departs from their own to any convincing degree. This isn't to say that they are bad RPers, because the real self that informs their characterization is often far more complex and interesting than anything that people tend to imagine up. In fact, many of the best RPers are good because however much talent they lack at getting into other peoples heads, they are really good at getting into their own head and mining it. Some of the more memorable role-playing I've ever seen was a brother and sister essentially playing themselves as little children engaging in natural imaginative play.

And to a certain extent, I'm actually being generous in this description, because in my experience not every group actually pays significant attention to roleplaying at all because thats not the part of the game that they really enjoy.

I would be estatic to find a player that could actually play a hill giant were-orca, not necessarily because of my great desire to have hill giant were-orca's a part of our collective story, but because of what it would mean for that players general RP talent.

I say these things as someone whose played with probably a dozen groups and 50 or so gamers in person, numerous others is one-shots, and numerous more online. The number of people out there that can be convincing elves and vampires is pretty small, much less things that are even further removed from human mentality. But they are out there and if one of them made an alien character I'd probably look forward to the experience.

But I'm also certain it would look nothing like what we've been discussing here. I however will refrain from calling my ancedotal experience 'fact'. I will however note that my observations about the commonality of RPers with actual skill at method acting an alien, pretty much equates both with the relative paucity of well realized aliens in science fiction despite the fact that science fiction writers are what you might call experts in imagination and speculation and the relative paucity of Hollywood actors with true range despite often having remarkable sceen presence. Sure, there are a small number of RPers out there who are Gordon R. Dickenson meets Dustin Hoffman but there aren't a lot of them. And in my experience, they don't need "hill giant were-orcas" to play something memorable.

All of this is tangental, however. Even supposing that we want to play a truly wierd game, perhaps something similar to China Meiville's creepy world of a thousand bizarrely and improbably alien species, it doesn't perforce follow that late 3.5's 600+ unbalanced prestige classes (many too weak, many too powerful) and dozens of narrowly defined inflexible base classes is remotely good way to get there. But, and again, I think I'm perfectly within my rights as a DM to say, "We aren't playing in a creepy world of 1000 bizarre and improbable aliens. We are playing in a world of dark faerie tales and high fantasy - HP Lovecraft meets the Brothers Grimm meet Tolkien. Come up with a concept and we'll talk about implementation, or look to the mechanics for inspiration."