Weapon Finesse with longsword?

[Enkhidu]

Dealing with different periods, and different types of steel, stuff like this will vary. D&D is not about bothering with the mechanics of this type of thing.

Exactly! Which is why we don't have hand-and-a-half swords - we have bastard swords (usable either one or two handed - though when used against heavily armored opponents they were used more for creasing armor in order to break bones than for piercing). Likewise, we don't have to have separate mechanics for cup hilted rapiers and trifoil blades - each is succesfully modeled with the "rapier" mechanic in d20.

Or - it doesn't matter what you call it: if a straight blade is about a meter long and used primarily for swinging then use long sword stats, and if its used primarily for poking then use rapier stats. One is finessable, as it relies more on precison aiming to guide the point home (or so they seem to think - personally I think you could say the same for spears).

 

[Staffan]

If it's a problem, just take up the thinblade.. It's a weapon from Dragon that has all the properties of a rapier (including finesse) and deals 1d8 points of damage.

It's also an exotic weapon, which balances things out.

 

[Mike Sullivan]

Let's not go overboard: mechanically the longsword is just a rapier with a different damage type, that trades a point of threat range for a point of damage. These aren't radically different weapons, and any balance differences will be subtle.

At high levels, where a point of base critical threat range starts to matter more than a point of damage, longswords are weaker than rapiers; the ability to take finesse with them shouldn't break any games. At low levels, the point of extra damage is more significant. It'd be slightly more powerful, but probably not game-breaking.

Having run the math, let me say that it's astonishingly difficult for a rapier to ever quite equal a longsword in terms of damage dealing. You need both keen and improved crit, and then a plethora of damage bonuses.

That said, the difference between them is relatively small -- less than a point of damage on average.

 

[LeifVignirsson]

There are PrC's and feats that will allow that type of familiarity for a long sword in order to use it via Weapon Finesse, but I have to agree with the general prinicple that a long sword could NOT be used in a finesse style for a medium sized character WITHOUT proper training.

This is why if you dedicate yourself to a certain weapon, you should be more and more familiar with it's threshold of tolerence for a particualr maneuver . You just can't take Billie Bob off the street, give him a long sword and say, Give me a triple twist slash with an emphatic lunge, just like you couldn't give Jake a herring and tell him to chop down the mightiest tree in the forest, it just can't be done... Sorry, got off on a Monty Python kick there...

I have weilded both and I can say that I could not do the same thing with one that I could with the other, and I have been doing this for a few years now. We also have to remember that these weapons are from different eras with different social parameters that made them the best weapon for their ages.

Anyway, seeing that it is still House rules are house rules, then we can't tell you no, you can't use Weapon Finesse. I wouldn't feel comfortable with it myself, but it is a different point of view, I guess.

 

[Phaedrus]

Thanks to all of you for your responses.

I've decided not to allow it. If the player wants to spend an exotic proficiency on the thinblade then so be it. That or go with the rapier.

 

[Azlan]

I'd not allow longswords to be finessed by medium creatures because longswords are heavy bladed slashing weapons (historically called broadswords).

Technically, wasn't a "broadsword" the type of 16th/17th Century sword that MacGregor wielded against the fop-duelist, at the end of the movie, Rob Roy? Its double-edged blade is similar to a longsword's, only a bit more slender and less tapering at its tip, and it has a basket-hilt. (This is what I picture an "elven thinblade" to be.)

I know that when most D&D players hear the term "broadsword", they picture a longsword with a slightly broader blade (especially at its tip). But every Medieval/Renaissance weapons history book that I have pictures a broadsword as the type I decribed in my first paragraph.

Anyway, I allow Weapon Finesse to be used with longswords (and with shortswords, for that matter) in my campaigns. I believe it makes sense to do so, and it does not unbalance the game in any way. A longsword is not at all a heavy weapon in the hand of a medium character.

 

[Mike Sullivan]

Anyway, I allow Weapon Finesse to be used with longswords (and with shortswords, for that matter) in my campaigns.

Er, can't you always finesse shortswords (if you're size medium)?

 

[Ruvion]

IMC I made a feat that enables a character to finesse a weapon that is the same size as his body size (namely finessing a medium-sized weapon for a size medium creature).

Finesse Specialization [General, Fighter]: Even large and seemingly ungainly weapons become like extensions of your arm.
Benefit: Allows you to Weapon Finesse or Natural Finesse any melee weapons that are the same size category as your body size. You can also Weapon Finesse or Natural Finesse “double weapons” or "finesseable weapons” that are one size larger than your body size. Bulky and weighty weapons (ie: axe, hammer, etc) are not suitable for finesse. This feat should not be confused with Weapon Finesse feat or Natural Finesse feat: For example, you must take the Weapon Finesse (long sword) feat in addition to the Finesse Specialization feat in order to use long swords with finesse.
Prerequisites: STR 15+, Base Attack Bonus +1, Proficient with weapon.

 

[Kraedin]

WotC obviously dosn't consider being finessable something important. I mean, the rapier is identical to the scimitar, except for that the rapier is finesseble. It doesn't make any difference if you allow Weapon Finesse to work with a longsword.

 

[Mike Sullivan]

WotC obviously dosn't consider being finessable something important. I mean, the rapier is identical to the scimitar, except for that the rapier is finesseble. It doesn't make any difference if you allow Weapon Finesse to work with a longsword.

Rapiers are piercing, scimitars are slashing. This isn't generally a big deal, except that large-crith-thresh weapons are very well-suited to the Vorpal enchantment -- and only slashing weapons can take the Verpal enchantment.

So, yeah, I'd say that being finesseable is a generally small deal, and certainly nobody's game is going to be broken because somebody weapon finessed a long-sword -- or a Halberd, for that matter.