We saw a Star War! Last Jedi spoiler thread

[Eltab]

I’m surprised the novel isn’t a simultaneous release. I like to read them too. Apparently it’s still a few months away.

"From a certain point of view" ... that may indicate just how poor the writing for this movie was - Disney / Lucasfilm's staffers aren't able to translate it into a (readable) book.

 

[pukunui]

As for the original trilogy heroes’ achievements being undone...I don’t agree. They brought down the Empire. They didn’t eradicate evil.

They brought it down, but it didn't stay down. It reformed and came back. Not only that, but Ben Solo's fall to the dark side appears to have ruined their "happily ever after".

Having seen TLJ three times now, I've more or less come to terms with things. I had no real issues with Han's story in TFA, and I think Luke redeems himself wonderfully in TLJ. It's just Leia that I'm left wondering about, and that mainly because Carrie is dead, so how they're going to wrap her story up is anyone's guess. I kinda wish they'd just let her die when she got sucked out into space (but I can see that it wasn't the right time in the story).

As for the First Order, I wonder how people would've felt if, instead of a reformed (but less powerful) Empire, the new trilogy sported a more intergalactic threat like the Yuuzhan Vong. I can't say I was a fan of them in the EU, but they did make for a (much-needed) change of pace.



That being said, I'd love it if they'd jump back in time to the Knights of the Old Republic era. They've been sprinkling little hints here and there, in the Rebels show and elsewhere. Apparently there's a necklace in Luke's hut on the island that belonged to a "Jedi Crusader" (according to the Last Jedi Visual Dictionary), which some people think means Revan.

 

[hawkeyefan]

They brought it down, but it didn't stay down. It reformed and came back. Not only that, but Ben Solo's fall to the dark side appears to have ruined their "happily ever after".

Having seen TLJ three times now, I've more or less come to terms with things. I had no real issues with Han's story in TFA, and I think Luke redeems himself wonderfully in TLJ. It's just Leia that I'm left wondering about, and that mainly because Carrie is dead, so how they're going to wrap her story up is anyone's guess. I kinda wish they'd just let her die when she got sucked out into space (but I can see that it wasn't the right time in the story).

As for the First Order, I wonder how people would've felt if, instead of a reformed (but less powerful) Empire, the new trilogy sported a more intergalactic threat like the Yuuzhan Vong. I can't say I was a fan of them in the EU, but they did make for a (much-needed) change of pace.



That being said, I'd love it if they'd jump back in time to the Knights of the Old Republic era. They've been sprinkling little hints here and there, in the Rebels show and elsewhere. Apparently there's a necklace in Luke's hut on the island that belonged to a "Jedi Crusader" (according to the Last Jedi Visual Dictionary), which some people think means Revan.

Yeah, they brought the Empire down, but they didn’t eradicate it. That was what I meant....they didn’t eliminate evil. The only way anyone ever gets a happily ever after is when their story is over. The fact that this trilogy was going to involve Han, Leia, and Luke meant that their stories were no longer over. So they needed to face some adversity.

The idea of a remnant of the Empire picking up the mantle of antagonist is new as far as Star Wars sequels go. Grand Admiral Thrawn in the Heir to the Empire, a resurrected Emperor in Dark Empire...and so on. But those stories, because of their medium, didn’t have to acknowledge the passing of time the way the film sequels do. So in the film, it’s many years later when things begin to get dark again. Which is kind of funny because to me that’s more natural than if there’s almost no lapse between Palpatine and Thrawn, let’s say. In the EU material, the happily ever after period is far shorter, if it even exists at all. And yet I don’t think I recall fans criticizing those stories for undoing the heroes’ achievements.

There’s no reason to believe that some part of the Empire wouldn’t carry on and possibly morph into something else. The First Order is essentially the Empire, with some minor differences, but I don’t really mind that since it’s something that rose up over time rather than right away.

I wouldn’t mind a threat of a different kind in future movies, I agree with you there. But for this one, the First Order seems a suitable antagonist.

 

[Water Bob]

Rey has been told twice that she needs training. Once by Ben in TFA and then by Luke in TLJ.

But, Rey really gets no training. She trains herself, really.

 

[pukunui]

And yet I don’t think I recall fans criticizing those stories for undoing the heroes’ achievements.

I did, particularly by the time of the Legacy Era. It was one of my biggest criticisms of the post-film EU. At the same time, however, those stories didn't invalidate the OT heroes' achievements as much on a personal level. Han and Leia got married and had kids and stayed married. Leia became an actual Jedi. Luke successfully brought about a New Jedi Order. It didn't all turn to custard again until after they were dead and gone.

 

[trappedslider]

I did, particularly by the time of the Legacy Era. It was one of my biggest criticisms of the post-film EU. At the same time, however, those stories didn't invalidate the OT heroes' achievements as much on a personal level. Han and Leia got married and had kids and stayed married. Leia became an actual Jedi. Luke successfully brought about a New Jedi Order. It didn't all turn to custard again until after they were dead and gone.

It just slowly turned to custard while they were alive

 

[pukunui]

But not quite to the same extent.

 

[tomBitonti]

Is there any decent background on how the New Republic failed so spectacularly to prevent the rise of the First Order? One expects that after the death of the emporer the Empire was shattered, and the New Republic would have asserted itself as the dominant power and would have, over several decades, overcome the bastions of the Empire.

Thx!
TomB

 

[hawkeyefan]

Is there any decent background on how the New Republic failed so spectacularly to prevent the rise of the First Order? One expects that after the death of the emporer the Empire was shattered, and the New Republic would have asserted itself as the dominant power and would have, over several decades, overcome the bastions of the Empire.

Thx!
TomB

I think that we get a hint of that in this movie...all the elite wealthy of Canto Bight or whatever the casino planet was called are said to profit from the constant state of war.

So the implication is, to me, that enough people are profiting from war for them to want there to be a First Order. Or a Rebellion, even.

 

[billd91]

Is there any decent background on how the New Republic failed so spectacularly to prevent the rise of the First Order? One expects that after the death of the emporer the Empire was shattered, and the New Republic would have asserted itself as the dominant power and would have, over several decades, overcome the bastions of the Empire.

Thx!
TomB

Well, the Union winning the Civil War didn't stop the south from generating the Klu Klux Klan and other racist terrorist groups. They've kept resurging fading and resurging again for 150 years. And even the eradication of Jim Crow laws and the Voting Rights Act of 1965 didn't stop places from interfering with voting rights and trying to impose other versions of segregation.

We beat the Nazis in 1945 and yet here they are demonstrating in American cities in 2017.

And those things have been occurring within far smaller spaces and societies than the events that have been transpiring in Star Wars. The Republic/Empire was made up of some fuzzy number of worlds that number at least 2000 (considering 2000 joined a petition to get Palpatine to relinquish emergency powers). That's a lot of worlds and a lot of territory for an insurgent group to try to administer even if they did manage to hack the head off the snake controlling the Empire. The Empire, by comparison, had it easier. Palpatine kept the structure of the Republic intact for a good 20 years after making the shift from Republic to Empire - by the time the Rebellion won at Endor, all of that structure's inertia would have been tilted against them - mainly local governors controlling the apparatus of fear and oppression and the Imperial military (and military industrial complex).