D&D 5E Wall of Force and spells

[Lanefan]

I find spells like Wall of Force to be already far less than entertaining. Poof, you win the encounter because the baddy doesn't have a teleport effect and you just bury it in summonings. Gee, that was a fun encounter. Conversely, you do it to the party. Yay, I tpk the entire party because the wizard didn't happen to have teleport today. Wow, that's fun.

This is a very, very poorly worded spell and is FAR too powerful for the level it's at.

Wall of Force in front of an airship in flight = all kinds of fun! Pulled this one off as a player within the last year. Or - and as a player I once helped with this one too - Wall of Force across a road not far in front of the 300 horsemen galloping alongsaid road at full speed, followed by a series of Fireballs into the resulting wreckage (yeah, we really didn't like that army! Felt bad for the horses, though).

And, if magic can't cross the WoF then how can your summoned critters get in there?

Further, there is a viable non-teleport way out of the hemisphere version if you've got the time and-or resources handy. I'll leave this one out there as a thought exercise for a bit...

 

[Oofta]

I bolded the relevant bit here and will note it again for emphasis: "at a point you can't see". That's where the arguments arise here, because, assuming open ground, just behind a Wall of Force is a point you can see because the Wall is transparent; which renders the rest of that sentence (regarding obstructions) redundant.


It does, but at the same time makes WoF far less entertaining and-or useful.

And still only solves the problems for WoF, not for ordinary glass.

Just because light waves happen to go through it does not mean it is a clear path. Transparent does not negate it being an obstacle, full cover has nothing to do with what you can or cannot see.

 

[Oofta]

Most of them. Not Dimension Door, Plane Shift, Scrying, Sending or Psychic Lance

As stated above, all but the last have a target of self. Psychic Lance would no more penetrate a wall than a fireball just because the lance starts at your forehead instead of your fingertips.

 

[Stalker0]

And, if magic can't cross the WoF then how can your summoned critters get in there?

By the book you can’t summon creatures into the WoF

 

[Stalker0]

I have deleted this entry, as it was based on an inaccurate spell block I found online. There is no issue with Scry to report.

 

[Oofta]

So today I learned that by the book…scrying is actually rules broken…it doesn’t actually work as a spell.

Scrying both had a range of self but actually has a target. By the book a target must be within the spells range…so you can only target yourself with scrying.

Even if you ignore that obvious mistake, again by the book the target must not be behind total cover, which cuts out the vast majority of targets.

The spell should be written like misty step, where there is no “target”, and then the effect hits a different person or area. But since it technically does have a target, the normal restrictions apply.

I am not suggesting anyone would actually run scrying in this broken manner, just interesting that all these years later it’s still hasn’t been fixed

The range scry is "self", just like teleport or plane shift. There is no mistake. The descriptive fluff text doesn't change that.

 

[Stalker0]

The range scry is "self", just like teleport or plane shift. There is no mistake. The descriptive fluff text doesn't change that.

CORRECTION: My notes were based on an incorrect spell block found online. My notes about Scry below are INCORRECT, this post should be ignored.


Not the same thing

Teleport has a range of 10 feet, and a target of: You and up to eight willing creatures that you can see within range, or a single object that you can see within range. So in terms of the spell, those targets absolutely must be within 10 feet, AND must not be behind total cover. Otherwise you can't target them. Now the spell description can do to those targets whatever it wants, no issue there.

For plane shift, there is no "Target" field specified, and so the rules of targets does not apply.

For Scry, it has both a range of self AND a target....that is the problem. By the book, you cannot target anyone else, because they are outside the range of self. That is very very clearly not the RAI, but that is the RAW.

How Scry should be written is this:
Range: Unlimited, on the same plan.
Effect: (some clause in the spell) You can choose a creature or location even if they have total cover from you.

That would be teh technical way to keep the spell as is and make it RAW legal.

For reference, this is the rule for range and targets that I am using for this discussion:

Range​

The target of a spell must be within the spell’s range. For a spell like magic missile, the target is a creature. For a spell like fireball, the target is the point in space where the ball of fire erupts.

Most spells have ranges expressed in feet. Some spells can target only a creature (including you) that you touch. Other spells, such as the shield spell, affect only you. These spells have a range of self.

Spells that create cones or lines of effect that originate from you also have a range of self, indicating that the origin point of the spell’s effect must be you (see “Areas of Effect”).

Once a spell is cast, its effects aren’t limited by its range, unless the spell’s description says otherwise.

 

[Willie the Duck]

I find spells like Wall of Force to be already far less than entertaining. Poof, you win the encounter because the baddy doesn't have a teleport effect and you just bury it in summonings. Gee, that was a fun encounter. Conversely, you do it to the party. Yay, I tpk the entire party because the wizard didn't happen to have teleport today. Wow, that's fun.

This is a very, very poorly worded spell and is FAR too powerful for the level it's at.

In general, I do not like what they did with force as and underlying concept. For some reason, BitD when such spells were developed they landed on the 'force fields are invulnerable, except for...' interpretation of how they work (even though, IMO, a Star Trek/Wars 'force fields can be overpowered with simple damage' would allow for more dynamic decisions and less gated-by-a-few-specific-spells issues). Likewise, Force damage seems to be the proverbial trump card damage type -- apparently only 9 creatures have force resistance and 5 have immunity. It kind of bypasses the hard decisions of choosing elemental types (which tend to have the ones with frequent vulnerability and high damage also be the ones with frequent resistance/immunity) and state, effectively, 'in a game of rock-paper-scissors, always pick shotgun.'

 

[Oofta]

Not the same thing

Teleport has a range of 10 feet, and a target of: You and up to eight willing creatures that you can see within range, or a single object that you can see within range. So in terms of the spell, those targets absolutely must be within 10 feet, AND must not be behind total cover. Otherwise you can't target them. Now the spell description can do to those targets whatever it wants, no issue there.

For plane shift, there is no "Target" field specified, and so the rules of targets does not apply.

For Scry, it has both a range of self AND a target....that is the problem. By the book, you cannot target anyone else, because they are outside the range of self. That is very very clearly not the RAI, but that is the RAW.

How Scry should be written is this:
Range: Unlimited, on the same plan.
Effect: (some clause in the spell) You can choose a creature or location even if they have total cover from you.

That would be teh technical way to keep the spell as is and make it RAW legal.

For reference, this is the rule for range and targets that I am using for this discussion:

Range​

The target of a spell must be within the spell’s range. For a spell like magic missile, the target is a creature. For a spell like fireball, the target is the point in space where the ball of fire erupts.

Most spells have ranges expressed in feet. Some spells can target only a creature (including you) that you touch. Other spells, such as the shield spell, affect only you. These spells have a range of self.

Spells that create cones or lines of effect that originate from you also have a range of self, indicating that the origin point of the spell’s effect must be you (see “Areas of Effect”).

Once a spell is cast, its effects aren’t limited by its range, unless the spell’s description says otherwise.

The range of scry is clearly self because that's what it states in the RANGE/AREA with is all that matters. The descriptive text doesn't change that. There's no conflict.

 

[Stalker0]

The range of scry is clearly self because that's what it states in the RANGE/AREA with is all that matters. The descriptive text doesn't change that. There's no conflict.

View attachment 286603

Ah you are 100% correct sir! Looks like I got hit by Internet Shenanigans!

The spell I found online absolutely has a target entry, but checking my PH it does not. So the spell block I was referencing was just plain wrong.

I now apologize for this tangent, my notes about Scrying were completely in error.