D&D (2024) Uncommon items - actually common?

[Maxperson]

Then, why is a 600g diamond worth 2 billions USD (invaluable actually, I just googled for a valuation of the Cullinan) while 600g of diamond dust is 30$ ?

Saying that "diamond dust" and "diamond" is the same price is a great solution, but it's saying that, in setting, there is no particular markup for diamond being big, which is a possibility, and something that is different from our world (flavor! exoticism!) but that should be more apparent, if it's the default choice, than deduced from a rule about the value of a magical component.

So no one ever said that gem values couldn't vary by size. A typical diamond is worth X(5k?). The DM can put one in the game half that size and it will be 2,500gp, or 10x the size and it will be 50,000gp. I still don't need to know how much each weighs.

 

[pemerton]

While I agree with most of your points, technically, if we go this way, we don't need to know it's ruby dust or diamond dust, or rare incense. It's a 50 gp tax to cast the spell. Why did they mention ruby dust here, a diamond worth 50 gp there? Mostly for flavor, much like sulphur and guano are needed for a fireball. And this is the exact reason, I, at least, would like to know if

a) 50 gp of diamond dust is 20 kg or a pinch, so I can picture my wizard sparkling it over the target of the spell or using a shovel to dig it out
b) if it's a tiny diamond I need to resurrect my dead fighter friend who arbitrated toward "dying from a 200 feet fall" and against "spend more time at the library, get a level of a proper class and learn Feather Fall", or a huge, fist-sized diamond.

If they put enough flavor to say you need diamond for resurrection, not jade, why can't they say how much?

Also, good luck explaining the players that no, they can't crush their 1,000 gp diamond into 50 gp of diamond dust. Or, maybe they can

I accept that you can get a greater quantity of dust from crushing (say) 10 low-grade gemstones than from crushing one high-value gemstone.

But is 50 gp of ruby dust, for the spell, sensitive to where the dust came from, or not? Is it measuring a quantity, or it is measuring a value/opportunity foregone? The rules leave this open, and I think there are benefits - of flexibility and simplicity - in leaving it open. Especially because, as you say, it is first and foremost a tax/cost for casting the spell.

Saying that "diamond dust" and "diamond" is the same price is a great solution, but it's saying that, in setting, there is no particular markup for diamond being big, which is a possibility, and something that is different from our world (flavor! exoticism!) but that should be more apparent, if it's the default choice, than deduced from a rule about the value of a magical component.

Alternatively, dust from the crushing of a large and beautiful diamond might be worth more (per grain) than dust from the crushing of a tiny, cloudy diamond.

 

[pemerton]

So no one ever said that gem values couldn't vary by size. A typical diamond is worth X(5k?). The DM can put one in the game half that size and it will be 2,500gp, or 10x the size and it will be 50,000gp. I still don't need to know how much each weighs.

The point you are replying to - as I understand it - is that 100 g of little crappy diamonds are not worth the same as a single beautiful 100g diamond, but will yield the same quantity of dust. In D&D terms, the idea might be that you can get as much dust from ten 10 gp diamonds as you can get from a single 1000 gp diamond, although the monetary value of the diamonds is not the same.

That's why, just upthread, I'm suggesting that the value of dust probably shouldn't just be correlated to the weight/volume of dust, but also its source.

 

[kigmatzomat]

A 50 gp gem can't really be currency, because each gem is unique. It might be worth 50 gp, but it could be completely wrong for your needs (maybe it's the wrong color?)

Alternately....what if color, cut and clarity have nothing to do with the value in d&d? What if it is simple mass relationship?

Much like not needing to know the quality of copper, I see no merit in caring about the yardstick that sets value, unless there is a game impact. If gemcutting as a skill can increase value, great, roll some dice, but I really don't care if it gets more valuable as a cushion cut, a sphere, or a simple cube. Make the d20 roll and the gem gets gem-ier. I mean, maybe the gem cutter increases the overall rubiosity of a ruby by excising negative-rubiosity mass. To me this is the least interesting aspect of economics.

Where economics helps a game is that some people seek power. Wealth is a form of power, with trade and banking a means of exerting control with that power. It is a non-combat way for that mythical level 0 npc to influence the world.

The npc that can make magic items can influence an area by what they make. Healing potions or poison? Tools or weapons? Protective charms or enchantments?

The rules on how things are made set the stage for who can feasibly make them, and how ,uch they cost get to who would feasibly own them. And that gets to the world the player characters live in.

 

[tetrasodium]

Alternately....what if color, cut and clarity have nothing to do with the value in d&d? What if it is simple mass relationship?

Much like not needing to know the quality of copper, I see no merit in caring about the yardstick that sets value, unless there is a game impact. If gemcutting as a skill can increase value, great, roll some dice, but I really don't care if it gets more valuable as a cushion cut, a sphere, or a simple cube. Make the d20 roll and the gem gets gem-ier. I mean, maybe the gem cutter increases the overall rubiosity of a ruby by excising negative-rubiosity mass. To me this is the least interesting aspect of economics.

Where economics helps a game is that some people seek power. Wealth is a form of power, with trade and banking a means of exerting control with that power. It is a non-combat way for that mythical level 0 npc to influence the world.

The npc that can make magic items can influence an area by what they make. Healing potions or poison? Tools or weapons? Protective charms or enchantments?

The rules on how things are made set the stage for who can feasibly make them, and how ,uch they cost get to who would feasibly own them. And that gets to the world the player characters live in.

A gem should be expected to exist in a form recognizable as a gem. What you are questioning with what ifs sounds more like the unknowable far realm than a recognizable fantasy world, you yourself can't even describe it.

 

[Maxperson]

A gem should be expected to exist in a form recognizable as a gem.

It already does. Ruby. Diamond. Beryl. Emerald. Those are all forms recognizable as gems.

What you are questioning with what ifs sounds more like the unknowable far realm than a recognizable fantasy world, you yourself can't even describe it.

I can describe it. It's small, blood red ruby. Why do I need to add princess cut and 2 grams to it?

 

[tetrasodium]

It already does. Ruby. Diamond. Beryl. Emerald. Those are all forms recognizable as gems.

I can describe it. It's small, blood red ruby. Why do I need to add princess cut and 2 grams to it?

What you aren't mentioning there is the dust of those gems you want to value by "simple mass"... That's why you seemed to be describing the unknowable far realm with what ifs.

 

[Maxperson]

What you aren't mentioning there is the dust of those gems you want to value by "simple mass"... That's why you seemed to be describing the unknowable far realm with what ifs.

The dust has that value...............to spellcasters. Why should a ruby crushed into dust be worth less when spellcasters need it badly to cast their precious spell and the dust is less common than whole rubies?

 

[tetrasodium]

The dust has that value...............to spellcasters. Why should a ruby crushed into dust be worth less when spellcasters need it badly to cast their precious spell and the dust is less common than whole rubies?

You and I live in a world where 3000 carats of diamond dust (bit over a pound) costs about 30$. The reason for that why is same reason that an expensive walnut board even more expensive chair made of walnut and sack of walnut sawdust§ all have wildly different value even if there is a market for all three.



§It kills basically everything

 

[kigmatzomat]

Gems, historically, were a (mostly) durable item. That's why they were a good proxy for money. They also required sheer luck followed by low-production mining to produce.

In d&d, gems are a consumable material. More accurately, they are a form of fuel or ammunition. The primary consumers are, quite literally, walking bombs. Anybody needing powdered gem dust is capable of casting tier2+ spells. By the same token, casters are capable of drastically reducing the effort of any mining operation and are capable of praying/divining for new sources of materials.

The economic drivers are totally out of whack with our universe.