unbalanced magic items

[gmnemo]

As a DM, I try to be as open as possible in terms of what I allow, to foster the players' liberty as well as creativity in building up their characters. As a part of this, I allow them to formulate whatever magic items they like from existing spells and abilities, as long as they follow the pricing guidelines on Table 7-33 (DMG 285). Recently, though, they have been getting more and more inventive, and they have presented a few items, two in particular, that I think are unreasonable by anyone's count.

First note that, by Table 7-33, a continuous item should always cost five times more than a 1/day use-activated item.

The true strike gauntlets (MIC 144) give you a +20 insight bonus on an attack, 1/day. They cost 3500 gp. A continuous version of this item would cost (3500*4*5 =) 70000 gp and give you a +20 insight bonus on every attack you ever make.

Guidance of the Avatar (Dungeons & Dragons - Spellbook - Guidance of the Avatar) is a 2nd-level cleric spell that gives you a +20 competence bonus on a skill check. An item (a ring, for instance) that allows you to cast this spell 1/day would cost (2*3*2000/5 =) 2400 gp. A continuous version would cost (2*3*2000*4 =) 48000 gp and apply to every skill check you ever make.

Questions.
1) Is there any reason (by the RAW) that either of these items should not be allowed to exist ?
2) If not, would you allow them ?
3) If not, how do you decide which items to allow and which to outlaw ? Do you simply veto each item on a case-by-case basis ?

 

[Dandu]

You get the final say when deciding the availability or price of any item. The guidelines are just that, guidelines.

 

[Starbuck_II]

First note that, by Table 7-33, a continuous item should always cost five times more than a 1/day use-activated item.

Untrue, you have to take in account the duration. The table has a multiplier for that.

If a continuous item has an effect based on a spell with a duration measured in rounds, multiply the cost by 4. If the duration of the spell is 1 minute/level, multiply the cost by 2, and if the duration is 10 minutes/level, multiply the cost by 1.5. If the spell has a 24-hour duration or greater, divide the cost in half.

The true strike gauntlets (MIC 144) give you a +20 insight bonus on an attack, 1/day. They cost 3500 gp. A continuous version of this item would cost 16500 gp and give you a +20 insight bonus on every attack you ever make.

And it is a swift action I think to activate.
Thus, minimum 16500 x4= 66,000 minimum. Can be higher, but that is minimum.
And I'd count continuous as 1/rd. So you'd only get 1/rd with 66K.
I'd increase cost for X times/rd.
132K for 2/rd. Etc.

 

[gmnemo]

[MENTION=61375]Starbuck_II[/MENTION]: My mistake; I thought that footnote applied to both use-activated and continuous items. So you're right, except that it's 17500, not 16500 (oops), so the total is 70000 gp. Thanks. And the 1/day ring of avatar's guidance would only cost 2400 gp. -edits OP-

[MENTION=85158]Dandu[/MENTION]:

You get the final say when deciding the availability or price of any item. The guidelines are just that, guidelines.

I know. I've already told my players that I'm disallowing these items. It's just that I was astonished that such a thing is technically possible, and wanted to get others' opinions.

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

The gauntlets? No.

Why? Short answer is because that's an epic item, by definition, and that requires an epic item creation feat:

In general, an item with even one of these characteristics is an epic magic item.

• Grants a bonus on attacks or damage greater than +5.
• Grants an enhancement bonus to armor higher than +5.
• Has a special ability with a market price modifier greater than +5.
• Grants an armor bonus of greater than +10 (not including magic armor’s enhancement bonus).
• Grants a natural armor, deflection, or resistance bonus greater than +5.
• Grants an enhancement bonus to an ability score greater than +6.
• Grants an enhancement bonus on a skill check greater than +30.
• Mimics a spell of an effective level higher than 9th.
• Has a caster level above 20th.
• Has a market price above 200,000 gp, not including material costs for armor or weapons, material component- or experience point-based costs, or additional value for intelligent items.

Longer answer is to just compare it to other magic items. The gauntlets basically grant a weapon enhancement, so look at magic weapon, rather than the more generic spell effect rules. It's effectively a +20 weapon, but the bonus is only applied to the attack roll. DM Hat of Arbitrary Rulings decides that's "half" the expected functionality , so call it roughly equivalent to a +10 enhancement (and that's probably an understatement).

That's 200,000gp. At least. Throw in the fact that this gauntlet or whatever actually applies to any weapon wielded? That is clearly epic. Double-plus-epic, actually!

The +20 skill check item? Probably ok (?)

Why? Compare it to the standard way to make magic items that grant bonuses on skill checks. The formula is (bonus squared x 100gp). For a +20, that comes to 40,000gp, so your cited value using spell is in the same ball park. (Remember body slot affinities that might push up the price, though.)

(Honestly, though, 40k-50k feels low to me. :/ Meh, YMMV.)

 

[jefgorbach]

the other thing to remind them of is the simple fact if they (as PCs) considered/attempted such an item then its quite likely somebody else either have also or presuming its truly new then would eventually be discovered and copied by others; either way its merely a matter of time before foes of similar level/resources will appear with similar items for use against them.

 

[Jack Simth]

[MENTION=61375]Starbuck_II[/MENTION]: My mistake; I thought that footnote applied to both use-activated and continuous items. So you're right, except that it's 17500, not 16500 (oops), so the total is 70000 gp. Thanks. And the 1/day ring of avatar's guidance would only cost 2400 gp. -edits OP-

[MENTION=85158]Dandu[/MENTION]: I know. I've already told my players that I'm disallowing these items. It's just that I was astonished that such a thing is technically possible, and wanted to get others' opinions.

Well, there's some spells which, if limited per-day, aren't a problem due to the action cost - but if made at-will and have the action cost negated, are very much a problem (True Strike being one of them - seriously, put use-activated True Strike on a two-hander with Power Attack, and it's better than a +13 Sword for most things - Power attack for 7: +14 damage, +13 to-hit).

They're just finding them. That kind of thing is the reason the designers called them guidelines, rather than rules, took the time to say they're only a starting point, and that the DM should always adjust things up or down based on the actual value.

 

[gmnemo]

Brilliant. I was not yet aware of these epic item guidelines. So are we to presume (since I don't see it written) that epic items can only be used by epic characters ?

It's effectively a +20 weapon, but the bonus is only applied to the attack roll. DM Hat of Arbitrary Rulings decides that's "half" the expected functionality , so call it "equivalent" to a +10 enhancement (and that's probably an understatement).

Ah, but if we're saying it's half of a +20 weapon, then that could perhaps better be interpreted as half of 800,000, or 400,000 gp.

The formula is (bonus squared x 100gp). For a +20, that comes to 40,000gp, so your cited value using spell is in the same ball park.

The only difference here is that the ring of avatar's guidance (at least, as I read it) would theoretically grant its bonus on all skills, while an item created by this method only applies to a given skill. :O

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

Brilliant. I was not yet aware of these epic item guidelines. So are we to presume (since I don't see it written) that epic items can only be used by epic characters ?

IIRC, anyone can use them (unless, oh, a god or something decides to interfere, of course ). However, only epic characters can make them. Which means they likely won't be in "Ye Olde Corner Majicks Shoppe" in the discount bin.

Ah, but if we're saying it's half of a +20 weapon, then that could perhaps better be interpreted as half of 800,000, or 400,000 gp.

Well, that's the awesome power of the GM Hat of Arbitrary Rulings!

The only difference here is that the ring of avatar's guidance (at least, as I read it) would theoretically grant its bonus on all skills, while an item created by this method only applies to a given skill. :O

Alrighty then... Consider all those bonuses to be "unrelated effects" so just add them all together, as per the item creation rules, perhaps? So thats 36 skills x 40k ~1.5million gp or so. Way more if you count all the knowledge, profession, perform, and craft skills separately.

So yes... that one is solidly in epic item territory, imho.


(And fwiw, as a heads up: some players might try to put Cure Light Wounds on a ring or something to effectively get fast healing 5+ for cheap. Just note that the epic Ring of Rapid Healing is priced at 300k for fast healing 3!)

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A good rule of thumb (and this might even be buried in the DMG somewhere?) is to only use the "spell effect" item creation rules if there is no other item or item creation rule that comes close to duplicating the effect. If there is, then that should supercede anything the players can come up with because (presumably) the designers have already made an attempt to account for related balance issues, and have intentionally priced that effect accordingly.

 

[akbearfoot]

Your first step when considering the price of any item someone wants to make should always be the same. Compare their desired result to the items that already exist.

There are a ton of items that grant +5 and +10 to individual skills. They all use the exact same formula. If you wanted an item that increased 2 skills it would cost twice as much, or more depending on if you use the normal cost modifier of+50% for extra effects formula. So, +20 on all skills all the time would cost more to make than the GP limit of a metropolis. Good luck with the whole finding an epic spell caster who will waste his time helping you.

Same goes for the 'true strike' thingy...clearly massively epic, by definition. Bonus squared x2000g = 800,000gold, which you should double since its a non-standard bonus type(insight). Since it's only a bonus to hit instead of hit/damage, you can probably say it evens out since true strike also gets rid of concealment/miss chance.....so, only a 1,600,000gp.