Trip as an action.. many questions.. also, is it worth it to trip an opponnent?

[RedSwan78]

Hey everyone thanks for looking! I'm delving into a new character, trying to learn the 3e combat variations and all more then I do now. I've never used such things as "disarm" or "trip"... well, or grapple or sunder or bullrush for that matter! (although I understand how sunder works, just never did it, grappling makes my brain cry for mercy, and bullrush.. hmm, just don't see much of why you would want to do that really)

SO, Tripping.. lots of questions First off, do you think that tripping your opponent is worth it? I mean, I guess at higher lvls you could look at as the fact that it takes a MEA to stand up from prone, therefore someone with itterative attacks can't use the full attack action.

Basic questions:

1. Can you trip with *any* weapon? I know that some weapons state in the PHB that they are "trip" weapons by stating "...you can make trip attacks with it. If you are tripped during your own tirp attempt, you can drop [weapon] to avoid being tripped"
So does that mean that I can't trip with a GreatSword because it doesn't state that it is a trip weapon? Or does that mean that I *can* trip with my GreatSword, but I just *can't* drop it to avoid being tripped if my trip attempt turns on me?

2. Can you trip Incorporeal creatures? Nothing in there description says that you CAN'T...

3. What can you do when you're prone? I've looked around in the PHB and the DMG, but haven't found what you *can* or *can't* do while prone.. can you move around while prone? If so, what speed? This comes to mind because of the fact that standing up while prone does *not* provoke an attack of opportunity.. which I don't understand why it wouldn't.. but because of this, why trip someone, they're just going to stand up and attack you anyways. I heard of a feat called "Kick em While They're Down" that if you take it, you DO get to make AoO's against someone standing up from prone in your threatened area. That's why the "what can you do while prone" comes to mind.. if they can move, what is to stop them from just moving 30' away from you, then standing up? Sure I guess they don't get any attacks, but then you have to move over to them and only get to make one attack also.

4. Improved Disarm states that your opponent does not get a counter-disarm attempt. Is there anything like that for Tripping? (besides the weapons that state you can drop them to prevent the counter-trip)

Here, I have a few other combat-crunchy-rules orientated questions that I'd like to include..

5. Disarm- it states that the defender gets +4 if they are wielding their weapon two-handed. What about if the attacker is using a two-handed weapon, do they get +4 also? It would make sense to me, but I didn't see it..

6. Can you declare that you are fighting defensively and use expertise (which I know you can do), and THEN tumble... and if you *fail* your tumble check, which means that you would suffer the AoO's, do you keep your bonuses from fighting defensively and using expertise? Why would you do that? say you only have a few ranks in Tumble (you know, it's not a fighter class skill, and yes I'm aware you can only tumble in armor that hasn't reduced your speed) and you need to get inside of an opponnents reach to dmg them.. I would use fight defensivley and expertise to up my AC to get within his reach so that I could whack him.. just wondering if you can combine those with a tumble attempt also..

OK, I think that about covers my crunchy-rules questions about those specific actions.. thank you in advance for helping me learn these

Now it comes to just some other general questions.. do you think that Improved Trip and Knockdown are worth it? I understand that Improved Trip and Knockdown do NOT stack, but I.T. is a prereq for Knockdown. I will be playing a Fighter with a good Str score using a GreatSword. It's pretty safe to assume that I'm going to be doing more then 10 points of dmg, in which case Knockdown comes into play and I get to make a free trip attempt. If that attempt succeeds I do NOT get to make an extra attack from Improved Trip, because I didn't "trip" him, I "knocked him down".. and I understand and accept that, This question just kind of goes along with the whole "do you think tripping is worth it" question..

These are the feats I'm looking at taking: Expertise, Improved Trip, Knockdown, Improved Disarm.
I'm building this guy along a "floor" type of template.. he'll either put you, or your weapon, on the floor After that, I'm looking at either prone attack, which requires Lightning Reflexes, or "instant stand" which is a feat I found off the net that requires Lightning Reflexes and 4 ranks of tumble, it allows you to stand up from prone as a free action. It's a net-feat so I may not be allowed to use it, and prone attack might fit the "flavor" of the character more.

Any other suggested feats? More importantly, any Prestige Classes that kind of revolve around this whole concept? If there aren't any around I may just write my own up and present it to my DM and see if he'll let me use it

Do you feel this is a good route to go with a fighter? Or will I be "gimping" myself or limiting myself instead of chosing "other" feats instead?

Thanks in advance for reading the novella!

 

[Pielorinho]

If you don't use a trippin weapon, you're assumed to be tripping with a leg-sweep or the like -- this is why your opponent can make a counter-trip on you.

Although it's not in the rules, I'd figure that any creature with a perfect fly speed is immune to being tripped: tirpping someone involves making gravity pull them to the ground, and if someone ignores gravity, you can't trip them. However, if you wanted to grab someone's leg and pull them down, I might let you use the trip mechanic to do so. It wouldn't be a trip, though: just something not exactly covered by the rules. (A grapple check might also work for this maneuver).

When you're prone, you can attack with a melee weapon, at significant penalty; I think you can also attack with a crossbow, but no other ranged weaponry. In our game, we rule that you can crawl at 1/2 movement. Standing up is a move-equivalent action, not a move action, so it can be combined with a 5' step. So you can roll away 5', stand up, and make a single attack (or cast a spell).

The only trip equivalent to improved disarm is improved trip -- which is, IMHO, a much better feat.

If you're using a 2-handed weapon to disarm someone, you gain no advantage to doing it. Watch some old Errol Flynn movies if you don't understand why .

You can do the uber-defense action you described (tumble, expertise, fight defensively) as long as you use the attack action. You'll have a hell of a time hitting your opponent, but then, they'll have a hell of a time hitting you. And sometimes, that's okay.

As for the general combat style, I had a fighter once based around tripping people. His weapon of choice was the polearm that gives a bonus to trip attacks; in addition to that, he had expertise, improved trip, and combat reflexes. What this meant was that he could trip people using an AoO as they approached him (using the reach weapon); once they were tripped, he could get a free attack on them using improved trip. The free attack would be at +4, since they were prone. On his turn (assuming he had some room to maneuver), he could trip one opponent, get a free attack on them, and move back ten feet, starting the whole routine over again.

It was lots of fun . Other feats that would be useful for such a character would be quickdraw (to pull out a greatsword once creatures close to within 5') and weapon focus and specialization feats.

But you should definitely consider getting a reach weapon to trip people with: using an AoO to trip is sweet.

Daniel

 

[Croaker]

The combo of Improved Trip and Improved Disarm is pretty powerful: if you use your free attack from IT to disarm a prone opponent, you get +4 to your opposed attack roll, while the target receives a -4 (a net 8-point improvement over a standard disarm attempt).

As to Improved Trip vs. Knockdown, it all comes down to the AC of your opponent, and your likelihood of knocking them over. Against high AC targets, you are better off using IT, since a touch attack is more likely to succeed, and the +4 to hit against a prone target is quite helpful. Knockdown is more useful against enemies with significant bonuses to their trip check, since Knockdown doesn't allow for a counter-trip. For example, a human fighter in full plate with a shield is a good candidate for an IT attempt, since his touch AC is much lower than his AC, while against a centaur, Knockdown is more effective, since it gets a +4 bonus to its opposed attack roll for its size, and another +4 for being a quadruped, plus the average centaur has a very good Strength score.

If you want to be uber-cheesy, you could go for the spiked chain, since it allows you to do all the great reach-weapon tricks that Pielorinho mentioned, and also grants a +2 bonus to Disarm checks.

 

[IceBear]

Interesting note from the d20 Modern SRD combat section (which I do feel will be a large part be the 3.5 revision) - standing up DOES provoke an AoO.

Edit: Are you sure that standing up doesn't provoke an AoO? I think maybe it's not in the text but it's listed in the chart. It just doesn't make sense that it doesn't.

IceBear

 

[Shallown]

I did the imp disarm/imp trip route with a spiked chain which is just made for those feats.

Trip is well worth it on anyone your size or smaller. Getting those bigger guys is hard.

Also trip gives a significant bonus to hit when they are down so tripping one guy when other party members can then attack before the guy gets up helps those lesser BAB characters out ( cleric/ rogue).

Knockdown is useful but since I have seen it in action I would suggest getting a knockdown D20 to roll with your to hit D20 it will save time and you'll know your bonus like you know your attack bonus.

Later

EDIT: forgot to add in trip is great for stopping opponents from getting away as well. just a sdie note that has worked for me.

 

[AuraSeer]

[...] and bullrush.. hmm, just don't see much of why you would want to do that really)

So you've never had combat on a cliff? Or near an active volcano? Or on a rickety catwalk precariously suspended over a fuming vat of acid?

I thought they handed out those scenarios in DMing 101.

 

[Pielorinho]

Edit: Are you sure that standing up doesn't provoke an AoO? I think maybe it's not in the text but it's listed in the chart. It just doesn't make sense that it doesn't.

From the SRD:

Stand up from prone [Move Equivalent][AoO: No]

Description: Self explanatory.

The reason, I think, is that it can become almost impossible to stand up if standing provokes an AoO: a trip-focused opponent can use the AoO to trip you again, making combat really frustrating. Although I can see where it'd make sense to have standing up provoke an AoO, I think that it'd lead to some annoying tactics. I hope this isn't changed, unless the improved trip feat and the wolf's ability to make a trip attack with each successful hit is also changed.

Daniel

 

[IceBear]

Man, I went over the SRD and looked for Standing Up from Prone and couldn't find it

Hmmmm - the d20 Modern Trip attack specifically states that standing up does invoke an AoO, and based how things are going I suspect that this will be true in 3.5. Then again, maybe they figure trip attacks would be more prevelant in D&D and leave it alone for the reasons you give.

Edit: Wait! Ok, the d20 SRD is messed up:

Standing Up
Standing up from a prone position requires a move action. It provokes an attack of opportunity from opponents who threaten the character.

BUT

in a chart it has

Stand up from prone, sitting, or kneeling No

I'll have to check this when I get home. It seems to be the trend that the changes in D20 Modern are what they're planning on using in 3.5

Edit2: Well, I found this in the D20 Modern FAQ:

Q: Also, the paragraph on "standing up" from prone on page 137 states that you provoke an attack of opportunity when you stand up from prone. The chart on page 135 says you don't. You didn't in the regular Dungeons in Dragons game. Is the paragraph on 137 just a typo?

A: The table is incorrect. Standing up from prone provokes an attack of opportunity.

I have a sneaky suspicion that it will in 3.5 too.

IceBear

 

[Pielorinho]

I have a sneaky suspicion that it will in 3.5 too.

IceBear

Nooooo! They suck! I'm not buying 3.5E if they make this change! This is going to ruin the game!



Okay, enough of my snarky hijacking of this poor guy's thread. If they make this change in 3.5, the trip-attacker will become an even more powerful fighter strategy than it is now. As it is, I think it's a fine idea to build a fighter based around funky combat maneuvers, and I think trip is one of the best ones to base it around.

Daniel

 

[IceBear]

Hehehehehe.

Yeah, I know what you mean. Like I said - maybe they'll realize that trips would become too powerful in D&D (in general the attack bonuses and whatnot are higher in D&D than D20 Modern - at least I would think so with the lower magic) and leave it alone. It's just that almost everything else that we've seen about the changes leads me to think they might just rip the combat rules right out of Modern, clarify it even more, change it so it sounds fantasy instead of modern, and plunk it down into 3.5

IceBear